(2) 604b or sell one pair for L300

[HBTim]

I have two pair of 604b Hollywood’s. One pair in pristine condition. I mean, faultless. Another pair with black speaker glue on one just a little bit here and there and the other one all the way around the paper hinge. They are in nice JBL cabs with cane grills. They have the N1000 original networks in both. They play wonderfully.

My question:

Would it be worth selling the non-pristine pair for a pair of very nice JBL L300?

I wanted to have a pair of 604b to listen too and not worry about and a pair to keep as a back up.

From the first time I listened to the 604b I was hooked. How do they differ from the L300?

I have not heard a pair of L300’s and have only heard of their legacy.

 

[tarior]

I've never heard 604Bs, but I have heard 4310s, which were designed to mimic them. L300s will easily run circles around them in every aspect. Especially if you replace the weak-in-the-knees 136A woofers with 2235s, which is what I did with my L300s.

 

[HBTim]

Gotcha... gonna set forth.

 

[toddalin]

I have two pair of 604b Hollywood’s. One pair in pristine condition. I mean, faultless. Another pair with black speaker glue on one just a little bit here and there and the other one all the way around the paper hinge. They are in nice JBL cabs with cane grills. They have the N1000 original networks in both. They play wonderfully.

My question:

Would it be worth selling the non-pristine pair for a pair of very nice JBL L300?

I wanted to have a pair of 604b to listen too and not worry about and a pair to keep as a back up.

From the first time I listened to the 604b I was hooked. How do they differ from the L300?

I have not heard a pair of L300’s and have only heard of their legacy.

Come on over and you can compare the L200/300s through the Yamaha (AlNiCo 2235s, AlNiCo tangenial 2420s on the long L300 horns, and AlNiCo 2405s with custom crossovers) to the Super Big Reds (604E2/Utah), triamped with Marantz separates and custom one-off electronic crossover and eq units to your heart's content. Totally different and you may well prefer the Altecs for their glorious midrange and imaging that lacks in the L300s.

Most any time is good. I'm usually here unless I'm out getting a massage (Mondays) or at the market.

 

[Greg Nal]

And the quest for the elusive perfect pair of speakers continues...

 

[tarior]

Come on over and you can compare the L200/300s through the Yamaha (AlNiCo 2235s, AlNiCo tangenial 2420s on the long L300 horns, and AlNiCo 2405s with custom crossovers) to the Super Big Reds (604E2/Utah), triamped with Marantz separates and custom one-off electronic crossover and eq units to your heart's content. Totally different and you may well prefer the Altecs for their glorious midrange and imaging that lacks in the L300s.

Most any time is good. I'm usually here unless I'm out getting a massage (Mondays) or at the market.

I've heard the vaunted Altec 19s and VoTTs. IMO, L300s are vastly, by a huge margin, superior for anything other than acapella, soft jazz, or chamber music. Altecs do have a wonderful midrange, and nothing else. IMCO, of course.
The biggest weakness of the L300 is the midbass. The 136A and the 2235 really don't do well in the 500-1000Hz range, so, with some material, the low mids and upper bass can be a little muddled. Most of the time it's not noticeable, but some material will expose it.

 

[HBTim]

Come on over and you can compare the L200/300s through the Yamaha (AlNiCo 2235s, AlNiCo tangenial 2420s on the long L300 horns, and AlNiCo 2405s with custom crossovers) to the Super Big Reds (604E2/Utah), triamped with Marantz separates and custom one-off electronic crossover and eq units to your heart's content. Totally different and you may well prefer the Altecs for their glorious midrange and imaging that lacks in the L300s.

Most any time is good. I'm usually here unless I'm out getting a massage (Mondays) or at the market.

As you can see from the time I am typing this that this actually woke me up at 3:30am... good grief.

That is a date Toddalin. I will PM you with a date and time later. I have also wanted to try your Mastering Labs crossover in my 604b. Me thinks after that I will stay put. Imaging and mids are why I set forth with the Altec in the first place.

 

[HBTim]

I've heard the vaunted Altec 19s and VoTTs. IMO, L300s are vastly, by a huge margin, superior for anything other than acapella, soft jazz, or chamber music. Altecs do have a wonderful midrange, and nothing else. IMCO, of course.
The biggest weakness of the L300 is the midbass. The 136A and the 2235 really don't do well in the 500-1000Hz range, so, with some material, the low mids and upper bass can be a little muddled. Most of the time it's not noticeable, but some material will expose it.

I have listened to 19‘s and the VoTT variants... they are not in the same breath as the 604b. I would not consider them anywhere near a comparable voice in my opinion.

Have you heard 604b’s? I am just wondering if your impressions of them were the same as the 19’s. If so, something, again my opinion, would be very wrong with those 604b’s. They to me are vastly different speakers.

This is also to say that the 604C, 8G, E, F G L M N O P, and any other, would be assumed the same as well as they are not also. I have listened to enough to know they are in a sound class to themselves. Not to say they are superior or not, but to my ears they are very different and overwhelmingly preferred by me.

Your comment about them having a wonderful mid range and nothing else leads me to believe you have not sat down in front of the Hollywood’s and have sat in front of the 19 and VoTT horns... Again, if you have though, something was terribly wrong with them. True, they may not reach those depth lows that can shake windows... I however think the cab and placement have something to do with that. My 604b have incredible detail and imaging. The highs are not horn harsh like most Altec horns CAN be... I get enough lows from mine to satisfy. True though, they do profit by using a sub.

 

[HBTim]

And the quest for the elusive perfect pair of speakers continues...

Hahahah... it never ends does it. Nice to hear from you bud.

 

[tarior]

I have listened to 19‘s and the VoTT variants... they are not in the same breath as the 604b. I would not consider them anywhere near a comparable voice in my opinion.

Have you heard 604b’s? I am just wondering if your impressions of them were the same as the 19’s. If so, something, again my opinion, would be very wrong with those 604b’s. They to me are vastly different speakers.

This is also to say that the 604C, 8G, E, F G L M N O P, and any other, would be assumed the same as well as they are not also. I have listened to enough to know they are in a sound class to themselves. Not to say they are superior or not, but to my ears they are very different and overwhelmingly preferred by me.

Your comment about them having a wonderful mid range and nothing else leads me to believe you have not sat down in front of the Hollywood’s and have sat in front of the 19 and VoTT horns... Again, if you have though, something was terribly wrong with them. True, they may not reach those depth lows that can shake windows... I however think the cab and placement have something to do with that. My 604b have incredible detail and imaging. The highs are not horn harsh like most Altec horns CAN be... I get enough lows from mine to satisfy. True though, they do profit by using a sub.

As of yet, I have never come across any 604Bs.

 

[Nyjblbob]

If you don't like the 19's or 604G's because of the additional Bass, You will hate the L-300's Boomy Bass. To me that's part of their appeal .
Go to Todds and Listen to Foam edge woofers. BTW be prepared to spend 4K and then the upgrades that all L-300's need

 

[SaturationPt]

L300s are special to me. So are good 2-way. There are 3 L300 woofer variants: The L300 has the 136A Alnico driver, the L300A has the 136H ferrite, and most (if not all at this point) have been re-coned with 2235H cones (hopefully). Whether they’re in the alnico or ferrite (L300 vs L300A) motors is another question of course. Many people have “heard” L300 Summits, but a look at the condition of so many used ones tells me that most people haven’t heard them correctly or recently.

Add to that the original crossovers vs a couple of variations, the most common being a variation on the Nelson Pass crossover where Mr. Pass spent a good deal of time working to improve on Greg Timbers’ design and wrote that there was an improvement, but I recall that he didn’t see it as a revolutionary change by any stretch. He complimented Greg on how hard it was for him to design a crossover that was any better.

So a properly maintained/restored L300A with OE 2235H (not aftermarket) is the best representation IMO that you will find today of the original design. Unless somehow you are able to find correct OE 136A kits. You also have six alnico magnets that need to be checked and/or re-magnetized and foam damping pads that will need renewing. Mine show excellent response from well below 30Hz, excellent phase characteristics, and sound exceptional IMO. They are perfect for my taste in much of the music that I love, and I would not listen (for example) to Miles Davis on the M2s.

However, I’ve heard and owned many high-end speakers of almost every technology and there are certainly many tastes that determine what is best. I prefer the minimal crossover in a 2-way where possible, and for most an active crossover but there are certainly tradeoffs in both directions 2-way vs 3-way.

I am waiting to pick up my Nineteens, and am excited to work on getting them as close to original perfection as possible and enjoying their sound. However, I don’t believe that they will give me such sonic nirvana that I will divest myself of all other speakers. Much like walking around AXPONA or CES and listening to many top-line systems exposes many great choices, I feel that they will just give me one more experience that I can choose.

If I were the OP, and had the opportunity to “trade” a second pair of very fine speakers for a a first pair of very fine speakers, I wouldn’t hesitate. This is not whether the 604b are better or the L300, but a matter of having both would be two great speakers of significantly different design for two experiences, maybe with two types of music. I’d do it!

 

[HBTim]

L300s are special to me. So are good 2-way. There are 3 L300 woofer variants: The L300 has the 136A Alnico driver, the L300A has the 136H ferrite, and most (if not all at this point) have been re-coned with 2235H cones (hopefully). Whether they’re in the alnico or ferrite (L300 vs L300A) motors is another question of course. Many people have “heard” L300 Summits, but a look at the condition of so many used ones tells me that most people haven’t heard them correctly or recently.

Add to that the original crossovers vs a couple of variations, the most common being a variation on the Nelson Pass crossover where Mr. Pass spent a good deal of time working to improve on Greg Timbers’ design and wrote that there was an improvement, but I recall that he didn’t see it as a revolutionary change by any stretch. He complimented Greg on how hard it was for him to design a crossover that was any better.

So a properly maintained/restored L300A with OE 2235H (not aftermarket) is the best representation IMO that you will find today of the original design. Unless somehow you are able to find correct OE 136A kits. You also have six alnico magnets that need to be checked and/or re-magnetized and foam damping pads that will need renewing. Mine show excellent response from well below 30Hz, excellent phase characteristics, and sound exceptional IMO. They are perfect for my taste in much of the music that I love, and I would not listen (for example) to Miles Davis on the M2s.

However, I’ve heard and owned many high-end speakers of almost every technology and there are certainly many tastes that determine what is best. I prefer the minimal crossover in a 2-way where possible, and for most an active crossover but there are certainly tradeoffs in both directions 2-way vs 3-way.

I am waiting to pick up my Nineteens, and am excited to work on getting them as close to original perfection as possible and enjoying their sound. However, I don’t believe that they will give me such sonic nirvana that I will divest myself of all other speakers. Much like walking around AXPONA or CES and listening to many top-line systems exposes many great choices, I feel that they will just give me one more experience that I can choose.

If I were the OP, and had the opportunity to “trade” a second pair of very fine speakers for a a first pair of very fine speakers, I wouldn’t hesitate. This is not whether the 604b are better or the L300, but a matter of having both would be two great speakers of significantly different design for two experiences, maybe with two types of music. I’d do it!

This is exactly what I was looking for and a great post. I would have to agree with you on having both. I will be setting a time to go to Toddalin's to do a sit down. I will also share my impressions. If Toddalin will have it, I would like to bring my tube set up and my 604b for an A/B. He is an all SS guy and he has some incredibly nice SS at that. I can't imagine having a better example of SS finest vs my 'preferred" tube set up. I would like to hear both the L300 on SS/Tube and the 604b on SS/Tube as well. This would really hone it in for me. My tube set up is a Fisher 400CX2 with an SA-100 or 300 (depending on mood) set up and all of them to spec and with total resto's. Well, that is all if Toddalin is even good with all that. But man, would be fun

 

[tarior]

@SaturationPt , I liked your post, but for one thing. I've been re-coning loudspeakers since the late '90s, and have a pretty fair bit of experience at it, and know quality parts when I see them.

In 2010, I bought factory 2235 cone kits for my L300s, with shipping, they cost a bit over $300. When I opened the box, I was more than a little disappointed with what I got relative to what I paid. They they weren't that great, and a far cry from the fit and finish that I expected to see, given my previous experience with JBL speaker products. They fit, they worked, they sound good, but in the future, I'll be doing my own kits with aftermarket parts.
From what I've seen, any JBL re-coner who claims that factory (at least for woofers) kits are superior to aftermarket is either a)unaware and not very discriminating, or b) not being honest with his customers.

 

[toddalin]

I've heard the vaunted Altec 19s and VoTTs. IMO, L300s are vastly, by a huge margin, superior for anything other than acapella, soft jazz, or chamber music. Altecs do have a wonderful midrange, and nothing else. IMCO, of course.
The biggest weakness of the L300 is the midbass. The 136A and the 2235 really don't do well in the 500-1000Hz range, so, with some material, the low mids and upper bass can be a little muddled. Most of the time it's not noticeable, but some material will expose it.

I think my L200/300s actually sound better using the 3115 (500 Hz) crossovers rather than the highly modified L200/300 crossovers in the cabinets. I've never been happy with these since I replaced the 130As with the 2235s and if I did it again, I would have had them done as 2234s.

That "muddle" is the infamous JBL "veil" that I've worked so hard to get rid of on the Mermans.

 

[tarior]

2234s are probably a great idea. Filling out the bottom end with a sub is easy enough. In fact, I have a couple of baskets floating around here somewhere....

 

[toddalin]

This is exactly what I was looking for and a great post. I would have to agree with you on having both. I will be setting a time to go to Toddalin's to do a sit down. I will also share my impressions. If Toddalin will have it, I would like to bring my tube set up and my 604b for an A/B. He is an all SS guy and he has some incredibly nice SS at that. I can't imagine having a better example of SS finest vs my 'preferred" tube set up. I would like to hear both the L300 on SS/Tube and the 604b on SS/Tube as well. This would really hone it in for me. My tube set up is a Fisher 400CX2 with an SA-100 or 300 (depending on mood) set up and all of them to spec and with total resto's. Well, that is all if Toddalin is even good with all that. But man, would be fun

You are welcome to bring anything you like (speakers/amps/etc.) and share your impressions. Just know that if you bring an receiver/integrated, you will also need to bring a high quality source and interconnects to feed it as mine (SACD/turntable) are all "racked in" and the plugs are very difficult to reach/change.

If you want to use your 604s, we could biamp them through the Marantz separates (may really open your eyes as to their possibilities assuming you have access to the leads), just ignoring the aux woofer's amp, or you can use your crossovers through the Yamaha. My 604s actually sound quite similar to yours, maybe with better highs (best I've heard from a 604).

I would love to hear the Mermans through tubes.

 

[HBTim]

You are welcome to bring anything you like (speakers/amps/etc.) and share your impressions. Just know that if you bring an receiver/integrated, you will also need to bring a high quality source and interconnects to feed it as mine (SACD/turntable) are all "racked in" and the plugs are very difficult to reach/change.

If you want to use your 604s, we could biamp them through the Marantz separates (may really open your eyes as to their possibilities assuming you have access to the leads), just ignoring the aux woofer's amp, or you can use your crossovers through the Yamaha. My 604s actually sound quite similar to yours, maybe with better highs (best I've heard from a 604).

I would love to hear the Mermans through tubes.

Man!!! sounds like a plan. I will PM you to coordinate.

 

[toddalin]

Just know that our time is limited so set your goals and priorities and plan accordingly.

 

[SaturationPt]

@SaturationPt , I liked your post, but for one thing. I've been re-coning loudspeakers since the late '90s, and have a pretty fair bit of experience at it, and know quality parts when I see them.

In 2010, I bought factory 2235 cone kits for my L300s, with shipping, they cost a bit over $300. When I opened the box, I was more than a little disappointed with what I got relative to what I paid. They they weren't that great, and a far cry from the fit and finish that I expected to see, given my previous experience with JBL speaker products. They fit, they worked, they sound good, but in the future, I'll be doing my own kits with aftermarket parts.
From what I've seen, any JBL re-coner who claims that factory (at least for woofers) kits are superior to aftermarket is either a)unaware and not very discriminating, or b) not being honest with his customers.

I too have NOS C8R2235H kits here, feel that they compare well to aftermarket kits that I have used. That said, my BIL has been a JBL Pro dealer in his business for decades, and when he has a customer who for some reason needs a cone etc., they replace the driver, from their measurements (sending in a driver for a re-cone vs new driver) the factory new driver is far more consistent and likely to meet original performance dead-center than a re-cone. However, if you are a band that has frequent replacements the re-cone might be good enough (his customers are typically large commercial installations so damage is not as common). If I can replace drivers, I’ll go that route and if not then cones, if not then foam/surrounds, in that order. Doped surrounds is another challenge entirely. Also for most people the JBL cone kits have the coil/former, spider, cone, and surround already assembled properly on a jig so it eliminates a lot of opportunity for the installer to mess something up.

Back to your point however. I don’t question your experience with OE vs aftermarket, from your posts and writings it appears that you have a well-experienced point of view. My comment then is not whether you can find aftermarket that is better made, but whether it is the exact stiffness, mass, etc. that the speaker was designed/tested/validated/built with. You might have the experience to be able to accurately measure and assess, but it is likely that most re-coners (especially hobbyists and other pseudo-professional speaker service people) are not and for them, buying OE JBL is almost sure to meet specs and has been tested to perform as new, everything else is just a paper plate with a hole in it.