2m black and vta?

[I <3 audio]

Hey all - this has been kind of brought up before on various forums - but only twice as far as I can tell with no real conclusion - what I’m thinking of is putting a 2m black on a debut iii tt. The main consensus has been lack of vta on debut would make it a pointless upgrade, however, since I have never had a tt with vta I was wondering if some can clarify a few things for me.

1) I have 2m blue right now on my tt and as best I can tell with a 40x loupe (and good eyes and light) vta looks spot on - if true would a 2m black not also be spot on?

2) how sensitive exactly is a 2m black - or other cartridges for that matter to vta? Is adjustment needed every time you go from a 180 or 200g vinyl to a standard pressing?
What about records that are slightly warped? Or ones that are very warped? I have a couple of both right now and try to listen for pitch variance over the warps, but it just doesn’t seem to be there.

3) what about records that are warped to a bowl shape but otherwise smooth? Is the Shibata being very fine at the apex to the point that it may be damaged playing something with a slight cup/bowl shape to it?

Thanks for any input you all have on this - again from the 2 related threads I’ve found about this it looks like no one has ever tried anything over a 2m bronze on a debut tt - I might have a write up about it one day, but need a little input first for now.

Also, despite a couple of questions about warped albums, most of my collection is in pretty good shape - mostly I’m asking to get a sense of I guess how much can vta be off by before it’s a proble or just sounds bad - I would definitely keep the blue stylus handy I think for less than great condition albums.

 

[Balifly]

Hey all - this has been kind of brought up before on various forums - but only twice as far as I can tell with no real conclusion - what I’m thinking of is putting a 2m black on a debut iii tt. The main consensus has been lack of vta on debut would make it a pointless upgrade, however, since I have never had a tt with vta I was wondering if some can clarify a few things for me.

1) I have 2m blue right now on my tt and as best I can tell with a 40x loupe (and good eyes and light) vta looks spot on - if true would a 2m black not also be spot on?

2) how sensitive exactly is a 2m black - or other cartridges for that matter to vta? Is adjustment needed every time you go from a 180 or 200g vinyl to a standard pressing?
What about records that are slightly warped? Or ones that are very warped? I have a couple of both right now and try to listen for pitch variance over the warps, but it just doesn’t seem to be there.

3) what about records that are warped to a bowl shape but otherwise smooth? Is the Shibata being very fine at the apex to the point that it may be damaged playing something with a slight cup/bowl shape to it?

Thanks for any input you all have on this - again from the 2 related threads I’ve found about this it looks like no one has ever tried anything over a 2m bronze on a debut tt - I might have a write up about it one day, but need a little input first for now.

Also, despite a couple of questions about warped albums, most of my collection is in pretty good shape - mostly I’m asking to get a sense of I guess how much can vta be off by before it’s a proble or just sounds bad - I would definitely keep the blue stylus handy I think for less than great condition albums.

Cartridge makers have already put in a pretty wide margin of "safety" in their stylus and the VTA need not be that exact in their actual daily use.

If you want to be exact with each and every record play back, you can with very exact and very high quality play back equipment.

There are many of us with not so high quality tone arms and exact setting for each weight and thickness of LPs and are presently enjoying the use of stylus similar to the the 2M Black - nude Shibata and even finer stylus.

 

[I <3 audio]

Right, but that’s another thing I don’t know about vta and tonearms in general, like what is a typical adjustment range if you do have vta? Can the tonearm move up or down, say, an inch? Or more like 2-3x the thickness of a 180g lp? I would have thought there would be some standard that was adopted at some point so that cart mfgs could use standard dimensions at least from mount to stylus tip, thus making vta only necessary for things like heavy vinyl and/or thick mats? And what about carts themselves? It does appear from pictures that say, ortofon quintet carts are quite a bit (maybe 20-40%) taller than like the 2m series - is that about right or is it just photography illusion?

 

[Balifly]

Right, but that’s another thing I don’t know about vta and tonearms in general, like what is a typical adjustment range if you do have vta? Can the tonearm move up or down, say, an inch? Or more like 2-3x the thickness of a 180g lp? I would have thought there would be some standard that was adopted at some point so that cart mfgs could use standard dimensions at least from mount to stylus tip, thus making vta only necessary for things like heavy vinyl and/or thick mats? And what about carts themselves? It does appear from pictures that say, ortofon quintet carts are quite a bit (maybe 20-40%) taller than like the 2m series - is that about right or is it just photography illusion?

Have not done any measurements of maximum VTA range on various tone arms with that feature.

Is there a standard for cartridge size measurement and why not ?

There is no Geneva convention governing world wide cartridge designs, that's why.

 

[I <3 audio]

Haha not quite what I meant - more like if several tt’s with no vta have been designed to fit x popular cartridge like say an at95, wouldn’t one think that they would the same vta then from the platter/mat to the cart mounts?

So I think maybe I answered my own question - since debut carbon ships with a 2m red, we would assume that the arm and platter height had been designed for correct vta with a 2m cart and so a 2m black should work well on a debut carbon or a debut iii since it’s the same other than a carbon version of the same arm, right?

 

[Balifly]

Haha not quite what I meant - more like if several tt’s with no vta have been designed to fit x popular cartridge like say an at95, wouldn’t one think that they would the same vta then from the platter/mat to the cart mounts?

So I think maybe I answered my own question - since debut carbon ships with a 2m red, we would assume that the arm and platter height had been designed for correct vta with a 2m cart and so a 2m black should work well on a debut carbon or a debut iii since it’s the same other than a carbon version of the same arm, right?

Correct!

 

[patient_ot]

I would just get a different turntable before spending that much on a cartridge for the Debut III.

 

[I <3 audio]

I would just get a different turntable before spending that much on a cartridge for the Debut III.

You mind elaborating as to why? I’m not opposed to that, just thought vta would be the main reason, and it seems 2m black shouldn’t have a problem with debut’s non adjustable height?

 

[patient_ot]

You mind elaborating as to why? I’m not opposed to that, just thought vta would be the main reason, and it seems 2m black shouldn’t have a problem with debut’s non adjustable height?

All those low-end Pro-Jects with same flawed motor mount design are noisy things. Putting an expensive cartridge on one seems like a waste. Beyond that the tonearm is made to be as cheap as Pro-Ject can get away with. Ortofon themselves would probably tell you it's like putting race tires on a Yugo.

I'd take the $700-750 you plan to spend on the 2M Black and put that toward a better turntable. That kind of money should net a huge upgrade on the used market.

 

[I <3 audio]

I got ya - it’s just I think I either got lucky with my motor/mounting or it was after pj fixed the problem - either way I’ve never heard anything but silence like between tracks on good clean viny :/

 

[WaynerN]

On a typical arm (12"), 1/4° of adjustment requires 1mm of vertical movement at the tonearm pivot. So, as an example, if you want to put....say 2° of tilt onto the stylus, you would need to raise it another 8mm (.314"). Both of my Technics (SL1200MK2, SL1210MK5) have only 6mm of total adjustment.

IMO, almost all cartridge manufacturers set up their cartridges to play fine with the arm parallel to the record surface (with stylus in the groove) for proper VTA.

BTW, I run shibata in several of my decks with arm parallel, with no problems.....at all.

 

[patient_ot]

I got ya - it’s just I think I either got lucky with my motor/mounting or it was after pj fixed the problem - either way I’ve never heard anything but silence like between tracks on good clean viny :/

The problem was never fixed. It's a flawed design and exists on the current Debut Carbon as well as other tables. Depending on how noisy your particular motor is (they vary) you may or may not notice the problem very much. Still wouldn't put a high dollar cart on one.

 

[I <3 audio]

On a typical arm (12"), 1/4° of adjustment requires 1mm of vertical movement at the tonearm pivot. So, as an example, if you want to put....say 2° of tilt onto the stylus, you would need to raise it another 8mm (.314"). Both of my Technics (SL1200MK2, SL1210MK5) have only 6mm of total adjustment.

IMO, almost all cartridge manufacturers set up their cartridges to play fine with the arm parallel to the record surface (with stylus in the groove) for proper VTA.

BTW, I run shibata in several of my decks with arm parallel, with no problems.....at all.

Wow so iow 1degree at the cart is quite a lot.. ever experiment? How much movement before you could clearly hear that sound has been degraded?

 

[I <3 audio]

The problem was never fixed. It's a flawed design and exists on the current Debut Carbon as well as other tables. Depending on how noisy your particular motor is (they vary) you may or may not notice the problem very much. Still wouldn't put a high dollar cart on one.

Oh I thought I had heard they changed the mounting system to correct it - I could very easily be mistaken tho

 

[sturgus]

I say give it a shot. Many times people are reluctant to spend more on the cartridge than the table. I think this is sometimes a mistake,if your table is quite as you say try it. It's the only way you will know for sure.I don't see your system listed to know if that money will be better spent some where else. I do know that the price of the Black would get a very nice used table if you don't mind used.

 

[I <3 audio]

I say give it a shot. Many times people are reluctant to spend more on the cartridge than the table. I think this is sometimes a mistake,if your table is quite as you say try it. It's the only way you will know for sure.I don't see your system listed to know if that money will be better spent some where else. I do know that the price of the Black would get a very nice used table if you don't mind used.

System right now is debut iii and 2m blue (obviously) tube box ds pre (also have a bugle 2 laying around for now) pioneer vsx-920 avr (I know, I know, trying to also find a good solution to use my only speakers for both 2ch and 5.1 for movies - suggestions?) and Polk tsx440t for l+r tsx250c and dswpro550 sub (kicking around the idea of picking up some rtia9’s with center while they’re 40% off or maybe even lsim’s since I know a guy who knows a guy.. I get most of my stuff for about 40% below retail anyway - which makes the rtia’s super cheap atm)

 

[trinhsman]

Hey all - this has been kind of brought up before on various forums - but only twice as far as I can tell with no real conclusion - what I’m thinking of is putting a 2m black on a debut iii tt. The main consensus has been lack of vta on debut would make it a pointless upgrade, however, since I have never had a tt with vta I was wondering if some can clarify a few things for me.

1) I have 2m blue right now on my tt and as best I can tell with a 40x loupe (and good eyes and light) vta looks spot on - if true would a 2m black not also be spot on?

2) how sensitive exactly is a 2m black - or other cartridges for that matter to vta? Is adjustment needed every time you go from a 180 or 200g vinyl to a standard pressing?
What about records that are slightly warped? Or ones that are very warped? I have a couple of both right now and try to listen for pitch variance over the warps, but it just doesn’t seem to be there.

3) what about records that are warped to a bowl shape but otherwise smooth? Is the Shibata being very fine at the apex to the point that it may be damaged playing something with a slight cup/bowl shape to it?

Thanks for any input you all have on this - again from the 2 related threads I’ve found about this it looks like no one has ever tried anything over a 2m bronze on a debut tt - I might have a write up about it one day, but need a little input first for now.

Also, despite a couple of questions about warped albums, most of my collection is in pretty good shape - mostly I’m asking to get a sense of I guess how much can vta be off by before it’s a proble or just sounds bad - I would definitely keep the blue stylus handy I think for less than great condition albums.

I did the Black on a Debut III I had. If you can have it professionally mounted, do so. You will be impressed. While you are at it, add some sorbethane grommets under the motor mount and just tighten till they slightly compress. Also, if you don’t have the speed box, get it PERIOD. The speed box is the biggest bang for the buck improvement you can make IMHO. Good luck!

 

[trinhsman]

One more thing to consider. The Blue is the sweet spot on the Debut table. Yes, the Black will sound better. But the Blue when set up right is very nice. I have done both on a Debut I owned.

 

[I <3 audio]

I did the Black on a Debut III I had. If you can have it professionally mounted, do so. You will be impressed. While you are at it, add some sorbethane grommets under the motor mount and just tighten till they slightly compress. Also, if you don’t have the speed box, get it PERIOD. The speed box is the biggest bang for the buck improvement you can make IMHO. Good luck!

I heard this in another thread here too about
the speed box - I might also try that at some point - I have to admit though I don’t understand how it would make that much difference- it’s still intriguing since 2 debut owners have recently suggested that to me - anyone know if it’s also a power conditioner or something? Linear mode instead of wall wart switch mode? What’s the source of the speed box’s magic iow?

 

[trinhsman]

I heard this in another thread here too about
the speed box - I might also try that at some point - I have to admit though I don’t understand how it would make that much difference- it’s still intriguing since 2 debut owners have recently suggested that to me - anyone know if it’s also a power conditioner or something? Linear mode instead of wall wart switch mode? What’s the source of the speed box’s magic iow?

It’s basically a quartz lock on the speed, instead of a 60hz motor. Still goes throigh the motor, but somehow stabilizes it. I am no electronic expert and could have easily misrepresented this. All I know is that it works.