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2sc1451 replacement on 939 amp board

Dan2021

Active Member
I have two transistors on my 939 amp board that I’m questioning because of the hfe differences.

1. 2sc1451 - test out at hfe 243 and I replaced them with ksc3503dstu which have an hfe of 86

2. 2sa809 - test out at hfe of 218 and I replaced them with ksa1381estu which have an hfe of 124.

Are these gain differences okay or would you guys recommend a different transistor for these?
 
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What is wrong with the originals ? Much better Hfe numbers than the Fairchilds/Onsemi's.
 
What is wrong with the originals ? Much better Hfe numbers than the Fairchilds/Onsemi's.
Actually nothing that I know of, but in my research everyone on audiokarma kept recommending to swap those out. Would you recommend putting the 1451 and 809’s back in?
 
KSC3503F would be closer in gain, if not better.

KSA1013Y may provide better gain than the 1381, and possibly better than the original.

The 2SC1451 does have a reputation for failure, but typically in the metal can with the heat sink attached. The 2SA809 is not on the top of the list for "shoot on sight" components, but can suffer of pushed to heating.
 
KSC3503F would be closer in gain, if not better.

KSA1013Y may provide better gain than the 1381, and possibly better than the original.

The 2SC1451 does have a reputation for failure, but typically in the metal can with the heat sink attached. The 2SA809 is not on the top of the list for "shoot on sight" components, but can suffer of pushed to heating.
I looked for the ksc3503f on mouser and Digi-Key. Do you know where to find them?

Also, I’m a beginner in the electronics world, what does a higher or lower gain mean and how does it affect the amplifier circuit?
 
The purpose of an amplifier is to increase the level of signal from some level of input to a more usable or desired level. Gain factor is just that - The numerical factor defining that rate of increase.

In the audio entertainment realm, that could involve a 150mV signal from a turntable into a 20,000Ω input (1.1µW) being amplified to a 12V level into 8Ω speakers (18W). The basic math indicates that would require an overall power (wattage) gain of around 16 million. That is difficult to do in one stage, so through the various stages of an amplifier that level of multiplication of voltage and current needs to occur to achieve the desired output.

A transistor amplifier is practically limited by the voltage applied to the circuit and current available from that power supply. The early stages of an amplifier, typically used for equalization of input signals, can use relatively high voltage circuits to rapidly increase gain. A typical phono EQ amplifier operating at 30V can amplify that 150mV signal up to the practical operating limits of the transistor before distortion is introduced, and most often a safety factor is applied to designs so that peak inputs do not exceed those limits. In our example, that 150mV signal (7.5µA) applied to the base of a transistor with a gain factor of 500. Theoretically, a transistor with a current gain (Hfe) of 500 can increase that current to 3.75mA. Using that signal, the subsequent stages only need to have an overall gain of 32,000. Between the various amplifier stages in a given unit, that is easily accomplished at low current/power levels.

Back to that "practical limit" of voltage and current in a transistor amplifier, as currents increase the gain factors of transistors tends to necessarily decrease due to heat/power dissipation (wattage) limits. This explains why power transistors commonly have Hfe factors well under 100, sometimes 25-40. A larger output transistor driving an 8Ω load with Hfe of 50 would theoretically need a 30mA signal applied to its base to achieve that 12V output level. That will determine what the preceding (driver) stages need to accomplish.

That is all theoretical, and in practical applications there are limits, losses, and a desire to have a safety factor (overhead) for durability. What it indicates, however, is that gain required in a given stage of the amplifier to achieve the desired result. If a particular stage only needs to have a current gain of 150, installing a device with a gain of 250 may not produce any advantages. Conversely, if a stage needs to have a gain of 250 and the device installed is rated to 150, the resultant output signal of that stage may not drive the subsequent stage to an adequate level. That will often result in distortion since the clipping of the preceding stage would only be amplified but the subsequent stage.

In short, a little math will need to be applied to engineer an appropriate replacement device. Which board/stage is invovel in your SX-939?
 
I looked for the ksc3503f on mouser and Digi-Key. Do you know where to find them?
There is an ebay seller named peace.love.and.music - he posts here regularly, very trustworthy. I see that he has the KSC3503 in stock so that's one option for you.
 
I ran into the same gain matching problem while restoring an SA9500II last winter. I had KSA1381E's (gain group 100-200) but only the complimentary KSA3503D's (gain group 60-120) from a previous Mouser order. I found that KSC3503E's weren't available from ANY of the commercial suppliers (i.e. Mouser, Digikey, etc.). I have ordered from peace.love.music on eBay in the past, and he's definitely a reliable source, but I messaged him and he said he only had the "D" gain group for KSC3503's.

I finally found a supplier named "wayez3" on eBay that had genuine KSC3503E's (gain group 100-200) and ordered them from him. At first I was reluctant to buy them from someone on eBay since so many of the sellers on that platform sell fakes. But this guy is legit, and they tested and worked out perfectly for my restoration. I just checked now and he's still selling them - the only problem is he's selling lots of 20 which could be way more than you'd need.

BTW, I haven't seen the "F" gain group available anywhere, even though the KSC3503 data sheet shows them with a gain group of 160-320.

Hope this helps.....
 
It’s an old data sheet. This would apply to most parts these days, which in general is a good thing. I think that the process equipment produces parts with much less deviation. Thus the distribution in specs or grading is much narrower so the specs on the edges of the tolerances is reduced or eliminated.
 
I have two transistors on my 939 amp board that I’m questioning because of the hfe differences.

1. 2sc1451 - test out at hfe 243 and I replaced them with ksc3503dstu which have an hfe of 86

2. 2sa809 - test out at hfe of 218 and I replaced them with ksa1381estu which have an hfe of 124.

Are these gain differences okay or would you guys recommend a different transistor for these?
Certainly an old subject but I'm doing the similar sx-1010 right now. The npn and pnp transistor replacement parts in question are in the voltage amplifier section in both the sx-939 and sx-1010 power amplifiers. The most important property of transistors in the voltage amplifier section is high early voltage or high output impedance not hfe or beta or the ratio of Ic/Ib. Both the ksc3503 and ksa1381 fit the bill and are readily available and cheap so they are the most appropriate replacement parts in this application.
 
Yes
Certainly an old subject but I'm doing the similar sx-1010 right now. The npn and pnp transistor replacement parts in question are in the voltage amplifier section in both the sx-939 and sx-1010 power amplifiers. The most important property of transistors in the voltage amplifier section is high early voltage or high output impedance not hfe or beta or the ratio of Ic/Ib. Both the ksc3503 and ksa1381 fit the bill and are readily available and cheap so they are the most appropriate replacement parts in this application.
However in some cases hfe are important. I have bunch of 2SC2911s/2SA1209S hfe between 170 and 200 for both PNP and NPN. if anybody interested PM me
 
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