4311B – two 2213H woofers sound different, was one reconed?

[dinkeyesjc]

I'm restoring a pair of 4311Bs I've had for a couple of years. I'm more of a cabinet/crossover guy than a driver guy, so I'm hoping someone can help me read the clues on these woofers.

Background: shortly after I got them, the drivers were out of the cabinets and my kids stepped on a mid and a woofer. A local tech repaired both. The mid got a paper dust cap instead of aluminum and is audibly duller plus the visible crack bothered me, so i've already ordered a replacement mid. That part's sorted.

The woofer problem: one 2213H sounds muffled/veiled in the upper mids compared to the other. It follows the driver regardless of cabinet or amp channel, and I could pick it out right away in a blind pink-noise fader sweep, and same with various songs (I even asked four family members to try the same test and we got the same result every time.)

Woofer A (sounds better):
- Repaired before I bought the speakers
- Back of the repair is a dark layer covering the whole damaged area; front has some odd pink discolouration

Woofer B (sounds veiled, the one the kids stepped on):
- Repaired with just a line of white glue along the crack, no backing patch
- ~6 mm (1/4") ring of dull sand colour at the very outer edge of the Aquaplas
- Dust cap is a slightly different colour (likely replaced after the damage, I can't recall)
- Cone may sit slightly higher above the surround – could be my imagination
- "SH" written in pencil on the back of the cone

What I've checked: no rub or buzz on sine sweeps, both move the same, and tapping around the cracks sounds the same on both. Both appear to have real Aquaplas, not a painted cone.

Questions:
1. Do these clues suggest one of them was reconed? If so, is there a way to tell genuine kit from aftermarket?
2. Is "SH" in pencil relevant? Maybe QC? Maybe a hint someone reconed it and put their initials
3. Could the glue-only crack repair alone explain the veil, and is a proper backing patch worth trying?

I've been keeping an eye out for replacement drivers for the past couple weeks, while I've been restoring the cabinets because of the visible repairs, but they're hard to come by and genuine recone kits are discontinued so I'm just trying to get some ideas before I blindly try to replace the one that sounds worse if maybe the one that sounds better is the oddity

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Here's photos of them in the cabinet before I took them out. The one with the darker dust cap and the noticeable discoloration is the one that seems to sound better.

 

[malden]

With the speakers upright, do the cones move freely in and out without rubbing when gently pushed in?

 

[dinkeyesjc]

.

With the speakers upright, do the cones move freely in and out without rubbing when gently pushed in?

Yes, they both seem to move freely and equally.

I've done a little bit of digging around for pictures of originals and I'm starting to think the duller sounding one is the original cone and that brown ring and the rounded voice coil glue is original as well as the initials possibly being QC initials or genuine jbl recone

I'm thinking the more airy one was re-coned

I'm going to go inspect them closer, see if I can see any other evidence that stands out.

At the end of the day though, I think it would be very difficult to find replacement drivers that are either original or have a genuine recone.

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Interesting. The "duller" one has 21005p on the cone

 

[dinkeyesjc]

The airy one does not have that stamp

 

[malden]

 

[Buck Rogers]

Same thing happened to me... One of my Altec 416's sounded off but looked OK.

Found another 416 driver on the bay, It matched it up with the one I liked.

Put the old one on Craigs, AS-IS needs repair 150$ and it sold in 24 hours.

The guy that bought it was so happy...

But he was a very "Close Talker" that freaked me out, Him being about 6'4"...

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Would this be relevant to my apparent reduced midrange (I spent some more A/B times today and it is definitely more muffled/veiled)

So I noticed the crack ran from about the surround to the dust cap, and I noticed some spots of the repair seem robust on the front where some spots you can see the original crack, then on the back I noticed that his glue doesn't extend all the way to the inner edge of the cone, then I put a flashlight behind it and noticed that some light gets through in some spots more than others

I included a picture of the repair that was done before I acquired these as well. & If it's worth anything, tapping a fingernail around each repair myself and another both thought it sounded more hollow/high pitch on the problem woofer (the one with the light shine picture), and it seemed to me that tapping all the way around each woofer the only time I heard a different pitch was when I got around that repair

Grabbed a multimeter and read 3.7 & 3.8

 

[Buck Rogers]

Yikes that's a crap repair.

If that was mine I would take a Dremel motor tool and grind off as much as the old glue as possible.

Then I would probably use some Clear 1 hour Epoxy and lay in a very thin bead in the crack, Front and back (One at a time).

I also heat up the cone with a hair drier to get the Epoxy to Soak into the crack and cone material.

24 hours later another Thin but wide bead across the crack, Wait 24 hours.

You want to firmly Bond both sides of the crack without adding a lot of weight.

It's not the best, It takes time but after many, many hundreds of speaker cone repairs, It's about the best I can recommend other than a new recone.

The problem with a new recone is it will sound different than the good one...

That's why I posted about my experience with the Altecs. It cost me 75$ to replace the funky sounding one, Total Win.

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Yikes that's a crap repair.

If that was mine I would take a Dremel motor tool and grind off as much as the old glue as possible.

Then I would probably use some Clear 1 hour Epoxy and lay in a very thin bead in the crack, Front and back (One at a time).

I also heat up the cone with a hair drier to get the Epoxy to Soak into the crack and cone material.

24 hours later another Thin but wide bead across the crack, Wait 24 hours.

You want to firmly Bond both sides of the crack without adding a lot of weight.

It's not the best, It takes time but after many, many hundreds of speaker cone repairs, It's about the best I can recommend other than a new recone.

The problem with a new recone is it will sound different than the good one...

That why I posted about my experience with the Altecs. It cost me 75$ to replace the funky sounding one, Total Win.

That's what I'm thinking. I've never done a speaker repair but it just seems to me that his repair is very not robust
Like here's a close up of what he did on the mid

It seems to me like the better one was a genuine recone AND a proper patch.

I suspect this other one to be an original cone with a very poor patch.

Do you have any recommendations for what I can do to improve it with no prior experience?

 

[dinkeyesjc]

That's what I'm thinking. I've never done a speaker repair but it just seems to me that his repair is very not robust
Like here's a close up of what he did on the mid

It seems to me like the better one was a genuine recone AND a proper patch.

I suspect this other one to be an original cone with a very poor patch.

Do you have any recommendations for what I can do to improve it with no prior experience?

Well actually I guess reading years over again it doesn't sound that difficult maybe I'll give that a shot. Do you think that could be the culprit of my lacking mid-range and dull sound is just a weak repair?

 

[Buck Rogers]

Well you have narrowed down the difference in sound to the woofer.

There is very little you can do other than upgrade the repair.

Question: Is the glue Hard or soft? It looks almost like Elmers.

As for the Mid I would warm up the cone and then add a Very thin bead of (Fresh) Super Glue.

Hopefully some of it will soak into the crack, I might add one more coat...

The second coat is Not a Bead it's more like a wider brush to extend the stiffness of the repair over a larger surface.

As always your trying to make a Stiff repair without adding too much weight.

"Is the glue on the woofer hard or soft?"

Stupid me, I did a video on this subject in the 1990's

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Well you have narrowed down the difference in sound to the woofer.

There is very little you can do other than upgrade the repair.

Question: Is the glue Hard or soft? It looks almost like Elmers.

As for the Mid I would warm up the cone and then add a Very thin bead of (Fresh) Super Glue.

Hopefully some of it will soak into the crack, I might add one more coat...

The second coat is Not a Bead it's more like a wider brush to extend the stiffness of the repair over a larger surface.

As always your trying to make a Stiff repair without adding too much weight.

"Is the glue on the woofer hard or soft?"

I would say hard. Finally got sick of trying to take pictures inside of a badly lit room too (my phone camera does not handle that well), so I took it outside and got somewhat better pictures if it helps anything.

I also noticed on the back where it seems like there's no glue on the crack that lines up likely with where there's an unfilled crack on the front

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Well my plot thickens. The better sounding one has noticeable scratchy sound when I lightly compress my hand. The more muted one does not

 

[Buck Rogers]

Actually as this person stayed away from the front of the drivers..

+ 1 HP as it were. I applaud anyone when they know when to STOP~~!

Holy crap nice pictures.

Yeah, I bought some Carbide Pineapple shaped grinders and they kick ass..

 

[Buck Rogers]

Please read up on JBL woofer SAG...

Lets confirm that Both Pairs of your speakers are preforming properly...

 

[dinkeyesjc]

Please read up on JBL woofer SAG...

Lets confirm that Both Pairs of your speakers are preforming properly...

Yeah I actually just finally flipped them 180° a couple days ago. Although it looks like when I got them I rotated them 90° probably by accident putting them back together the first time but now I have them flipped 180.

I'm at a bit of a loss with them though. I mean the one with the rubbing voice coil sounds fine. In fact I listened to these the other day with the LE5-10 that is also performing quite a bit more muffled than the other one and I said to myself these are the best speakers I ever heard. That's what got me going so deep into the restoration

As it stands I'll have a new never before stepped on LE5-10 in there and new dust caps on the other mid and two tweeters, new foilcals, I painted the baffles, I sanded and oiled the cabs, so I think I'll put them back in as they are and keep an eye out maybe for a good condition replacement woofers.

I could have both reconed with aftermarket kits but that sounds less than ideal and being Canadian means paying around $1300 CAD to ship them to edgewound to have him install his two recone kits (which is about 850 Canadian more than I paid for the speakers).

But if anyone has any other suggestions I am definitely all ears and I'm willing to do any troubleshooting or photo taking that is within my skill level haha

 

[dinkeyesjc]

These areas seem to line up by the way although I didn't see any light shining through but I wonder about the rigidity here.

Then of course there's a fact that the kids put a foot through these I don't know how severely but there is no voice coil rubbing I can hear even with that

 

[loudnoises]

Only to eliminate other causes, have you swapped them between channels?

I had a horn driver pair giving me nightmares till I figured out it was creeping bias on a tube amp...