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6148 vs 12AT7 - anyone have experience?

cbox83

Active Member
6414 vs 12AT7 - anyone have experience?

I am contemplating picking up a set of 6414 tubes to drop into my Fisher 400C. After reading a bit on google, it seems they are practically drop in replacements for a 12AT7, but the plates are ENORMOUS and the gain is SLIGHTLY higher.

Does anyone have experience with these?

This was corrected because I put the wrong tube in at first.
 
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I do that too, so many damn numbers to try and remember. It draws about twice the heater current, but I doubt if that would be an issue for a fisher. They put some pretty good sized iron in those power supplies (unlike a lot of others who scrimped). I'd liken it to running a 12BH7 for a 12AU7 in that dept., but hell yeh, I'd try it. Are they fancy Euro tubes? I'm thinking I may have been through this once. :scratch2:
 
My data is showing an AF of 42 for the 6414 and 55 for the 12AT7, so that's fairly negligible. The 6201 is a good special communications number to drop in also.
 
Semantics, terminology ......

I found that people can be quite free with terms like 'similar', 'replacement' etc.

The figures I have are µ = 60 for 12AT7; =42,5 for 6414. Thus I would not say a drop-in replacement, for which I would consider no more than 10% difference either way. (If I were to buy a 12AT7 and find a µ of 43 instead of 60, I would immediately reject it.) Some seem to think that if 'rolled in' and a sound is experienced, that denotes a satisfactory replacement. But acceptable operation will depend on the circuit.

To what advantage would one want to replace a 12AT7 with a 6414?
 
Given what the 12AT7 does in the Fisher 400C (1/2 cathode follower, 1/2 final gain amp with no feedback), any change in circuit behavior due to gain difference in the tube, is probably pretty benign. There's no feedback loops to upset...

The only possible advantage I could see, would be if the 6414 had more linear plate curves than the 12AT7. I don't have those in front of me to analyze that, though...

Other than that, you might be looking at about 2dB of gain loss. That probably won't matter much, unless you're already banging off of the top end of the volume control to get adequate volume level, now...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Given what the 12AT7 does in the Fisher 400C (1/2 cathode follower, 1/2 final gain amp with no feedback), any change in circuit behavior due to gain difference in the tube, is probably pretty benign. There's no feedback loops to upset...

The only possible advantage I could see, would be if the 6414 had more linear plate curves than the 12AT7. I don't have those in front of me to analyze that, though...

Other than that, you might be looking at about 2dB of gain loss. That probably won't matter much, unless you're already banging off of the top end of the volume control to get adequate volume level, now...

Regards,
Gordon.

Good summation of my thoughts as well.

Trying different tubes is just plain fun for a lot of people, me included. I don't really need a reason, or even a suggestion. I just want to "Do no Harm" as the Doctors say. Other than that, roll on. :music:
 
Don't they require different heater voltage? 6.3 for the 6414 and 12v for the 12AT7?

Or have I made a blunder on this?
 
I have dropped them in. I can't tell a whole lot of differences sonically, perhaps they are a slight bit more detailed. Volume knob is definitely going a touch higher as well to get the volume. The deal contained 3 sets, wish I could put them in some other equipment to gauge the differences. I think I'll keep them in!
 
Yeah, I'm not sure whether I should be using 6414's or not however they're the best valve I've found period.

Sound amazing in my Yaqin MS23B on my bedroom system, although I don't know whether they sound be used in there or not. Likewise they sound brilliant in my Yaqin MC10T in my main system in place of the stock Shugang 12AU7's..... I've some Westinghouse Black Plates 12AU7 and psVane 12AU7-T II coming to try in there as well.

When it comes right down to it though, they're the best sounding tube I've ever come across. I just don't know if they'll hurt my gear or not. Sure sound great though.

Mine a '57 manufacture Raythen 6414 Black Plates
 
If we look at the notes in the data sheet, Note 9 states not to run them above max ratings, and that means 6.3v is the heaters are wired in parallel.

So to me this means it depends on how your amp has the heaters wired.
 
If we look at the notes in the data sheet, Note 9 states not to run them above max ratings, and that means 6.3v is the heaters are wired in parallel.

So to me this means it depends on how your amp has the heaters wired.

Almost all amps today run at 6.3 volts for heater voltage. The option to run a tube at either 12 volts or 6 volts is a holdover from the days when radios in cars were tubes and when some home sets were wired "hot chassis" with heater filaments in series.

Nevertheless, before making any tube substitution, it is important to check the tube data sheets for pinouts as well as max voltage ratings and compare that with the amp's operating conditions.

Peavey, for example, does make a few guitar amps which run 36 volts on the heater supply and puts 3 tubes in series. They do that to decrease current, which lowers the hum.
 
Awesome. Explains why my equipment hasn't gone boom using these. They're truly amazing sounding tubes, particularly in a phono stage :banana:

Almost all amps today run at 6.3 volts for heater voltage. The option to run a tube at either 12 volts or 6 volts is a holdover from the days when radios in cars were tubes and when some home sets were wired "hot chassis" with heater filaments in series.

Nevertheless, before making any tube substitution, it is important to check the tube data sheets for pinouts as well as max voltage ratings and compare that with the amp's operating conditions.

Peavey, for example, does make a few guitar amps which run 36 volts on the heater supply and puts 3 tubes in series. They do that to decrease current, which lowers the hum.
 
Well, there's several confusing posts here. My books don't list a 6415. It might be in Frank's Tube Pages though.

So perhaps it may seem redundant to state this, but for anybody who may stumble across this thread in the future, here goes: A 12 AT7 or 12AX7 or 12AU7 may be run with a heater voltage of 12 volts by applying the heater supply to pins 4 and 5. One heater wire goes to 4, the other wire to 5. Pin 9 is not connected to anything. The same tube can be run on 6 volts: wire one heater wire to pin 9. The other heater wire must be wired to both Pins 4 and 5 (merely bridge them together).

Not all tubes have this dual-voltage capability. A 12FQ8 for example does not have the middle tap (got any Wurlitzer organs? Plenty of 12FQ8's) so it must always be run on 12 volts. Same with the 6$$* tubes where the $ would be a letter and the * a number, like the 6SN7, they must always be run on 6 volts.

The pure number tubes like the 7027and 7247 and others don't follow any scheme as far as heater numbers... They are whatever number was open next. The 7027 is a 6 volt big bottle power tube, the 7247 is a 9 pin miniature dual triode either 6 or 12 volts

So when somebody has a tube XYZ and they want to sub it for a ABC tube, they need to look at the number of pins, first. Obviously a 9 pin miniature tube won't fit a Compactron socket. If the number of pins are the same, look at each individual pin to see if it's the same pin out. Are pins 4,5 and 9 the heater pins? Same with plates and cathodes and grids. If they are the same, no rewiring necessary, if they aren't the same, the socket will need rewiring to even attempt to use the different tube.

So let's say the wiring is the same, or you can make it the same. Now...is the heater voltage the same? How about heater current? Not so critical in miniature tubes, but critical in power tubes. Ok, now how about plate voltage? Does the replacement tube have limits on plate voltage? Then comes the rest of the electrical characteristics. Similar gain (transconductance)? Then look at the tube charts and ideally draw load lines to see if they will be biased similarly without changing anything. It's possible the new tube will be biased into cutoff, or clip too easily if the new tube will be at a far different bias point.

I may have left something out, that was the speedy version, so if I've fat-fingered a response, don't shoot me. I'm only the piano player...oh wait, I don't play piano.

And if all this is old-hat to anybody here, I'm not trying to sound condescending either, but there are some new folks who may think "hey this new tube has 9 pins and it's a 12 something, this tube in my amp also has 9 pins and it's a 12 something also. Let's see if this new tube works!!"
 
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