A question about the war in Iraq...
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Ask the American civilians working in Iraq that were beheaded what the truth is. I'm sure they would have a different answer than the one you want to hear. Which is all statistics are, a set of facts manipulated and construed in a way to prove anybody's point. Two people can look at the same facts and come up with two different conclusions. You see the glass as half empty, I see it as half full, same difference.
war is hell
i am a captain in the reserves; NAAD Medical Detachment. My brother in law is a seargent in Irag as we speak. he was home 2 months ago for 2 week visit. he feelings were that everything there was MUCH worse than was being relayed to US public. He stated troop morale was at an absolute low. he stated the deaths and killing were unbelievable; the iraqi people believe we are behind the car bombings and therefore do not try to stop things, that almost no iraqi thinks anything is better under new system. read some objective reporting from US allies like italy, and germany. its alot worse than ours. additioinally, i am a physician and can unequivocally state that the Lancet is considered THE premier medical journal. crap does not get by these folks, they are consummate professionals that take their job and reputation very seriously. they would not print something that without peer review and scrutiny. the damage we do in war is difficult to understate. how many members here are vietnam vets? is your life better for war. we could have spent 300 billion building good will and encouraging peace, instead we kill.
i am a captain in the reserves; NAAD Medical Detachment. My brother in law is a seargent in Irag as we speak. he was home 2 months ago for 2 week visit. he feelings were that everything there was MUCH worse than was being relayed to US public. He stated troop morale was at an absolute low. he stated the deaths and killing were unbelievable; the iraqi people believe we are behind the car bombings and therefore do not try to stop things, that almost no iraqi thinks anything is better under new system. read some objective reporting from US allies like italy, and germany. its alot worse than ours. additioinally, i am a physician and can unequivocally state that the Lancet is considered THE premier medical journal. crap does not get by these folks, they are consummate professionals that take their job and reputation very seriously. they would not print something that without peer review and scrutiny. the damage we do in war is difficult to understate. how many members here are vietnam vets? is your life better for war. we could have spent 300 billion building good will and encouraging peace, instead we kill.
My real wish is that the people of Iraq can discuss things like we can here without the fear of reprisals. I personally believe we have helped them come closer to finally achieving this. If democratic elections can be held in January this will be another major step towards that, and hopefully a step towards lessening our military involvement there. Personally, I don't believe we will ever truly leave Iraq, because it is too big of a strategic area to relinquish, the Persian Gulf, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia all nearby. Not to mention the oil, and unfortunately we depend on that, so our commitment to protecting it will probably never subside.
Amazing you never hear about car bombings in Kuwait???
Amazing you never hear about car bombings in Kuwait???
Protecting the oil from what is what I ask,,,,,What can happen to it? We are the biggest buyer,,,countries would line up to sell the crude to the US. A heavy provider of oil for the USA basically gets a protection shield from invasion (or retrieval from invasion ala Kuwait).
This issue of democratizing other countries, to me, smells like tactics the old jesuits had...Total disregard for the local customs and history, and so, just go at it ignorantly.
I dont think it should be any countries duty to propagate any particular form of gov't...Some countries just dont have the resources or will to accept democracy...If something makes sense to us, it doesnt mean that its right for the other side.
And I speak as someone who has lived in South America, spent many months in the middle east, SE Asia...
If you look at all the democratic countries in the world, they all have a long history of struggle before it came, or where colonized long time ago by european maritime powers of the time...Most other democracies are always in state of struggle, as in South America, Africa, Far East...
Our democracy works for us, but not for everyone.
This issue of democratizing other countries, to me, smells like tactics the old jesuits had...Total disregard for the local customs and history, and so, just go at it ignorantly.
I dont think it should be any countries duty to propagate any particular form of gov't...Some countries just dont have the resources or will to accept democracy...If something makes sense to us, it doesnt mean that its right for the other side.
And I speak as someone who has lived in South America, spent many months in the middle east, SE Asia...
If you look at all the democratic countries in the world, they all have a long history of struggle before it came, or where colonized long time ago by european maritime powers of the time...Most other democracies are always in state of struggle, as in South America, Africa, Far East...
Our democracy works for us, but not for everyone.
excellent point
i agree with WhiteSE. well said. remember, if common sense were common, everyone would have it. we (americans) have it pretty damn good. we project onto others our model, values, media, and more. thats one reason why others dont care for us. i personally feel that democracy is the right approach, but can it be imposed? democracy by martial law?
also,earlier post made a good point in that as a govt we have been inconsistent when and where we provide assistance. i love that picture of Rummy giving Saddam gold spurs... Saddam was an ally to Reagan. We provided weather data and maps for the Iraqi army to deploy chemical weapons on Iranian forces. are we any better? are we any less radical in our own way. was iraq imposing their values on USA?
what about our lack of responses to Rwanda, Sudan, late entry to Bosnia?
what about germ warfare, way scarier than nuclear warfare. smallpx could wipe out 75% of world's population in less than a year. we have it, russia has it, france has it, china and N. Korea have it.... yeah a nuke would be horrible. smallpox worse, way worse. if you think your immunization as child will protect you think again. yet we spend on Iraq
for reference read:
The Demon in the Freezer
The Scourge
All the Shah's Men
Richard Clark's testimony
i agree with WhiteSE. well said. remember, if common sense were common, everyone would have it. we (americans) have it pretty damn good. we project onto others our model, values, media, and more. thats one reason why others dont care for us. i personally feel that democracy is the right approach, but can it be imposed? democracy by martial law?
also,earlier post made a good point in that as a govt we have been inconsistent when and where we provide assistance. i love that picture of Rummy giving Saddam gold spurs... Saddam was an ally to Reagan. We provided weather data and maps for the Iraqi army to deploy chemical weapons on Iranian forces. are we any better? are we any less radical in our own way. was iraq imposing their values on USA?
what about our lack of responses to Rwanda, Sudan, late entry to Bosnia?
what about germ warfare, way scarier than nuclear warfare. smallpx could wipe out 75% of world's population in less than a year. we have it, russia has it, france has it, china and N. Korea have it.... yeah a nuke would be horrible. smallpox worse, way worse. if you think your immunization as child will protect you think again. yet we spend on Iraq
for reference read:
The Demon in the Freezer
The Scourge
All the Shah's Men
Richard Clark's testimony
Toasted Almond
RIP 1952-2016
I too am a member of the reserves. Full-time civilian employee (GS-10) of the New Jersey Dep't. of Defense, and by federal requirement, a member of the New Jersey Air Guard (Master Sergeant). My federal contract says I can't hold the civvy job without the military affiliation. I have been employed in this capacity for over 28 years now.
Trying hard to not get political here. I can only think of three incidents that truly split the fabric of this great country the U.S. of A., pitting fathers against sons, uncles against nephews, neighbors against neighbors, friends against friends.
1. The Civil War
2. The Vietnam War
3. This mess we're in.
TA
Trying hard to not get political here. I can only think of three incidents that truly split the fabric of this great country the U.S. of A., pitting fathers against sons, uncles against nephews, neighbors against neighbors, friends against friends.
1. The Civil War
2. The Vietnam War
3. This mess we're in.
TA
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Toasted Almond
RIP 1952-2016
Dave,
I think there's an awful lot to like about you. I think I haven't seen anything to DISLIKE about you. I also think no matter who they voted for, many people on both sides of the ripped fabric would agree this situation is a mess.
I'll repeat what I said in a different thread. I sincerely hope your son can complete his military obligation without becoming part of the mess, and if he does get involved, that he can do his parents, siblings, and country proud, while coming through unharmed.
George
I think there's an awful lot to like about you. I think I haven't seen anything to DISLIKE about you. I also think no matter who they voted for, many people on both sides of the ripped fabric would agree this situation is a mess.
I'll repeat what I said in a different thread. I sincerely hope your son can complete his military obligation without becoming part of the mess, and if he does get involved, that he can do his parents, siblings, and country proud, while coming through unharmed.
George
My last thought on this is (and I actually never make political statements), as I am a political switzerland.
But, isnt it a crying shame that we spend all this money to deal with foreign policy, as if its "really" going to make us stronger for the future, instead of spending inside the USA?
I cant even speculate what goodies could our society afford if that money was spent internally, lets say bridge infrastracture, support to VA administration, I dunno, you name it....How many freaking art programs have to be cut because we cant afford it,,but we burn money overseas...
I personally think that the best thing we can do, is get stronger from within, invest within the USA...Now, dont be busting my chops about isolationism, because that is not what I mean....Just pick the fights and fight for what really matters...and I would guarantee that we would have tons of allies...
I just get depressed because as a history buff, you always read of empires that crumble under its own ineptitude and lack of vision...I dont want the Ol' USA to end up that way.
But, isnt it a crying shame that we spend all this money to deal with foreign policy, as if its "really" going to make us stronger for the future, instead of spending inside the USA?
I cant even speculate what goodies could our society afford if that money was spent internally, lets say bridge infrastracture, support to VA administration, I dunno, you name it....How many freaking art programs have to be cut because we cant afford it,,but we burn money overseas...
I personally think that the best thing we can do, is get stronger from within, invest within the USA...Now, dont be busting my chops about isolationism, because that is not what I mean....Just pick the fights and fight for what really matters...and I would guarantee that we would have tons of allies...
I just get depressed because as a history buff, you always read of empires that crumble under its own ineptitude and lack of vision...I dont want the Ol' USA to end up that way.
tubino
A guy with too many tubes
DanTana said:
Not my choice of metaphor, but how about, if empty = chaos, full = order: I see the glass as draining faster than we can fill it.
Or better, the invasion broke the glass. We can say the glass is half fixed or half broke, but it doesn't really matter because either way, it can't be filled.
Two words to explain why I think US is there: client state.
And Dave, I'm really really down about this topic, but I'll second what TA said. I'm rooting for EVERY ONE of our guys and gals to come through this okay.
Wornears
Age & Treachery
War Is Business
This "war" is a business decision disguised as a "bringing democracy to the world against the axis of evil out there." It's for keeping the oil flowing to maintain our capitalistic Western economy, coupled to this current administration's inflated sense of world-worth.
I love my country even more after living and working overseas. I've seen Policia Militar drive up in an orange van, everyone in the street freeze, about six SWAT-like armed guys rush in a building and pull a man out kicking and screaming. When they drove off, people went about their business. That is what happens to a "disappeared one."
My dad fought for the U.S. from the time he was drafted at 18 in WWII to Korea to Vietnam. I know what the cost to a family is, and I'd step up if called to defend this country. But we are on a fool's mission in Iraq and many, many more will die before it's over.
This "war" is a business decision disguised as a "bringing democracy to the world against the axis of evil out there." It's for keeping the oil flowing to maintain our capitalistic Western economy, coupled to this current administration's inflated sense of world-worth.
I love my country even more after living and working overseas. I've seen Policia Militar drive up in an orange van, everyone in the street freeze, about six SWAT-like armed guys rush in a building and pull a man out kicking and screaming. When they drove off, people went about their business. That is what happens to a "disappeared one."
My dad fought for the U.S. from the time he was drafted at 18 in WWII to Korea to Vietnam. I know what the cost to a family is, and I'd step up if called to defend this country. But we are on a fool's mission in Iraq and many, many more will die before it's over.
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