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A Songbird of a Different Color

LOL. Been to Dave's several times. Am sworn to secrecy on the contents of the bunker with the exception of pics I took...it's like a museum I tell ya! Will be making another trip to the Fisher "Area 51" this spring. :drool::D
 
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I spun a bunch of vinyl last night, which included some Blue Oyster Cult, man does this 1800 have a sweet phono section. :thmbsp: I installed ti tweeters in the Belle's also, woohoo is all I can think to say at the moment. :music:
 
This 1800 must have an odd history

After owning several Fisher tube receivers and amps, I have gotten used to the normal wear that shows up for their age. Things like pots that are a little loose, finger wear around the the commonly used knobs, and even speaker screws with wear from screw drivers.
It almost seems like this unit had very little use from possibly having problems early on in its life. With almost zero wear at the knobs, snug but smooth moving pots, speaker screws with very little wear showing, and just a very fresh looking chassis, all point to very little use. It is possible that it was worked on a few times to try to fix what was wrong with no success by people with limited skills, since Dave documented sloppy work. The original main tubes might of been taken from it and used in something else, also when I received the 1800 it had the wrong style fuse holder that would not even allow it to power up. (probably why I was able to get it cheap)

I have tried a couple times to find out from the seller I purchased it from some history of where it came from, but no response at all. I guess I will just have to wonder about it's history, but it must of been unusual. :dunno:

I'd be curious of your opinion of it's amount of use Dave, since you have seen many Fisher's come across your bench.
 
You may be right.
I have a very late 400, that I got in its original box, with similar symptoms and some tired output 7868s. I haven't restored it yet.
 
The history of a unit is something I'm always interested in. For my own pieces, I always make every effort to try and uncover past use and ownership information when I receive it. Short of that, I turn to the unit itself to try and decipher what information it might reveal of its history.

To that end then, I think that this 1800 reflected a heavier use pattern than outward appearances might indicate. My observations would include:

1. I think it was largely a one owner (or one user) item, meaning it was installed once or twice through out its life, and then used for a significant period each time. That would account for the minimum wear on connector screws, connecting jacks, and the like.

2. I also think it was installed in a cabinet for most of its life as well. That would account for its overall very clean appearance, but also a rather significant amount of old dust that I was always chasing out of various pockets. For example, when I had all the PS cans removed, there was a significant amount of debris revealed under the inside bell cover of the power transformer, that you just didn't really see or notice with all the cans in place.

3. The unit had clearly been serviced at some point as well -- but really quite strangely so.

I had originally thought that the B+ rectifiers had been replaced in the unit at some point, because while their solder connections looked original, they weren't the usual "top hat" type of component that is the standard you see as the originally installed device. However, the more miniature, gold looking devices that were installed in fact carried the same device number on them that Fisher calls out as their part number in the 800C Service Manual. So, while the original units were a much more modern device for the day when it was manufactured, they were still quite antiquated by today's manufacturing standards -- which would be in keeping for some of the last vacuum tube equipment that Fisher ever produced. Even their rating (600 PIV @ 1A) is antiquated by today's standards as well for the service they perform. By comparison, and even though the old diodes were still good, ultra-fast 1000 PIV 3A diodes now reside in their location.

One mystery of the unit was the low voltage DC heater/bias supply. As received, the unit had all original -- or at least, original style -- components installed in this circuit, but really very sloppily so. There was a tremendous amount of solder debris all around that area on the chassis and components -- very uncharacteristic for Fisher -- with virtually no solid mechanical lead connections made before soldering. This too is very un-Fisher like. It's almost as if someone was troubleshooting with a change-everything-out-until-it-works-again approach. OK, but then why were all the components still original components then? And they clearly were original components. The only thing I can think of is that maybe a component or two was changed, by swapping the old component for good ones from a junker unit. Beyond that, its hard to decipher much more from this area, other than this would all suggest that the work must have been done long ago. With modern components being so much better, and rather inexpensive at that, then why use (potentially) junker components -- unless the work was in fact done long ago when more modern parts weren't available yet. Either way however, you may recall that the output of this supply was so low, that for the longest time I operated the unit without the output tubes installed, and could not finish the initial assessment of the audio circuits until there was enough fire from it to light the heaters of the small signal audio tubes -- again suggesting that whatever work was done, was performed long ago. That's why this area was the first to receive actual restoration work.

Based on other observations, I believe that the unit got some good use, but as an audio component only. I frankly think that some of the problems in the FM section were potentially there from day one (if only intermittently so), which likely lead to reduced use of the receiver, or at least the majority of its use with the input selector switch in the AM, Aux, Phono, or Tape positions. The particular issues with the damaged IF transformer were a product of its construction, and clearly had never been replaced or repaired before it came to me. As Steve knows from behind the scenes communication, I even had to tear down one additional IF transformer to chase out one last ghost in the FM section.

The real indicator however, is the tubes. The power tubes had been changed out -- or harvested -- we'll never know. But all of the other tubes were all Fisher tubes, with a number of them weak or showing shorts, very weak, or even completely dead. Static unused time doesn't do those things to a tube -- use does. So at least the tubes that were in the unit certainly saw a fair amount of use time wise.

One thing I will mention -- and I hate to say this -- but based on the condition of the "All Fisher" tubes I received in at least my own 800C, I sadly suspect that some folks save these tubes up, and then populate equipment they are trying to sell with them, marketing it for max buck by the hook that it still has all its original (and good!) tubes -- as if to indicate low use time. In this 1800, one phono preamp tube (for example) was as good as the day it was manufactured, while the other phono tube was all but dead, and microphonic as heck. Now how does that happen if they were all original tubes? But hey, at least they were Fisher branded tubes! I'm not absolutely stating that foul play was at hand, but unfortunately, you never know anymore.

As for the face plate, it was in remarkably excellent shape -- again, owing to possibly cabinet installation, and (largely) single input use? Heck, for all we know, it could have been left tuned and pre adjusted to a favorite AM station, and turned on and off by a wall switch controlling the wall plug -- by why buy an 1800 for that service? Clearly, for the unit it received, it didn't require a lot of adjustment of the unit.

Steve indicated that he was pleased at the price he picked the unit up for. While he was never able to get any history out of the seller, that person may have at least had a conscience and had some knowledge of the work that would be required to restore it. Or, other than the output tubes, all Fisher tubes may have been sure to be included to counter act the known operational problems price wise. Well never know. I know with my own 800C, the seller was very good to provide history about the unit, but when I contacted him about the issues I noted that were counter to his marketing, I never heard from him again. As received, the FM section of the 1800 was completely dead, and it would have destroyed the output tubes before the small audio tubes ever warmed up enough to pass a signal!!

Some light might also be shed by knowing how you came upon this unit Steve -- and how it was marketed if that was involved.

These units are so rare, but its nice to know that there's at least one out there that looks so darn good!

Dave
 
The history of a unit is something I'm always interested in. For my own pieces, I always make every effort to try and uncover past use and ownership information when I receive it. Short of that, I turn to the unit itself to try and decipher what information it might reveal of its history.


Some light might also be shed by knowing how you came upon this unit Steve -- and how it was marketed if that was involved.

These units are so rare, but its nice to know that there's at least one out there that looks so darn good!

Dave

It was purchased off Ebay at least 1-1/2 years ago, I had just seen one go for 2600.00 a few weeks before so I just decided to watch with no intention of bidding on it thinking it should go sky high. Well to my surprise it did not get very high, so I tried my luck and got it.

The seller stated they were an estate sale seller and posted that it did not power up, and they knew nothing more about it.
 
recapping the supply...

Dave, do you find a voltage increase in the power supply when you recap it? I would think you would as the newer caps today have a lower ESR than the originals, and certainly old, used originals. How do you compensate for such issues? thanks
 
While there is no doubt that modern electrolytic caps are superior in construction and performance, and certainly smaller for a given voltage and value, the caps from back in the 60's were plenty good for the service they were designed to provide. How else would they still operate after 50+ years? To further that point, I remove more "good" caps than bad ones -- but since you never know how much longer they will be good, the rule of thumb is to replace them.

As to the voltage increase created by the use of new caps, that is something that is theoretically true, but in reality, is basically insignificant. In most cases, the voltage difference between new caps, and good old caps cannot be resolved by the typical dvm. That's not to say that the voltage didn't absolutely increase. But it is to say that in any proper design, the rise created is completely insignificant.

The much bigger issue is the increase in operating voltages (of all types) due to today's line voltages. If B+ rises too much, output tube dissipation becomes and issue. When heater voltage is consistently more than +105% that starts becoming an issue with tube life as well.

With this project, the B+ voltages resulting from the installation of the new can caps were virtually identical to that which the old caps produced. And yet, there is little doubt that the old cans were going to go out sooner rather than later. Installation of the new cans has moved that event to much, MUCH later now.

Dave
 
Update

Just wanted to post an update since my last post, the 1800 has worked perfect since it arrived. The tung-sol main tubes provide great power, and the sound is as good as it gets. The tuner has to be one of the best I have owned, both AM and FM are strong, and have quality sound you just do not expect from radio. Klipsch Belle speakers are not known for real deep bass, but hooked to this 1800, it is deep and very powerful. The highs are very detailed just like my other Fisher receivers, but there is something about the combination of all this, the beautiful looks of this model receiver, and the Belle's.

I once again have to thank Dave G. for putting his heart into the rebuild, I couldn't be happier, and enjoy it anymore than I do. Dave, many thanks to you, you'll be glad to know this special Fisher will be enjoyed for a very long time. :thmbsp:
 
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Hi Dave: I got a 20dB quieting performance of 3.5 uV after adapting the gen output impedance to match 300 ohm. What do ya say! Martin
 
Hi Dave,
This thread has been very cool to follow! A real page turner. I really like that small bias board that you fabricated. Do you have a drawing of this board and parts list? Thanks very much for sharing your project.

John
 
Because of the hot nature of the new Tung Sol output tubes, I actually had to modify the board slightly from the pics shown (removed one component), but I should be able to get a sketch drawn and posted soon.

Dave
 
Vint -- Your figure is better, but still quite high (basically double) for a properly operating Fisher FM tuner. If you're sure of the alignment and operation of the basic FM tuner section, then your procedure may be at issue. To achieve accurate quieting numbers, the test should be performed in mono mode, with all covers in place, and your matching transformer shielded (or its case grounded if metal) so as not to pick up random ambient noise. The unit of this thread required only 1.6 uV for 20 db quieting, which is notably lower, and typical of that which a fresh alignment and strong tubes will produce. Go back and check your test setup to insure it is not unnecessarily influencing the outcome of your testing.

Dave
 
Because of the hot nature of the new Tung Sol output tubes, I actually had to modify the board slightly from the pics shown (removed one component), but I should be able to get a sketch drawn and posted soon.

Dave

Hi Mr. Dave, I enjoyed reading this thread very much! I'm about to start some work on my 800C and am trying to decide between an IBAM and a single pot for an adjustable bias. Was wondering if you were able to sketch your single pot bias circuit as used on the songbird restoration? Thanks, Wes
 
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