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about inner groove

chamaruco

chamaruco

Active Member
sorry my newbie question:
Could an old used vinyl suffer of inner groove?
While most of my records don’t, some old records that come from relatives or garage sales do.
Maybe previous turntable had damaged they
My cartridge is at440mlb and is adjusted with overhang gauge
Thanks.
 
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Don't really know. The damage I find is usually anywhere on the record with loud complex passages. I think they even avoided putting those more challenging tunes near the end. Then you have the records where somebody liked just one or two songs, and played just those over and over.
 
If you dont have any problems with your new or used records in your collection it is very possible that these old records have damaged inner grooves on it because that in this old times needles in order have more pressure on records then today or before 20-30 years ago.
AT440MLb is preety immune to IGD if you have properly aligned tonearm and stylus.
Did you try to deep clean this old records from garage before start playing on TT? Dust in inner groves also can cause the problems with IGD.
 
I've noticed that too. The few records I have with IGD are oldies from thrifts and garage sales and it seems the inner groove is worn out far more than the rest.
My best guess would be heavy usage under the burden of ceramic carts with osmium / sapphire quick-to-wear styli, set on heavy tonearms of 60's era common
household changers.
 
Try to look on grooves unde light. If groves wear you can see on eye different shades then on your records or on same record on outer grooves. Heavy wear is visible on eye.
 
Maybe ... maybe not. What does the used Vinyl look like? The first record in this video (50 second mark) or the 2nd (1:11 mark).
IMHO ... if it's like the 1st, it's a lost cause. If it's like the second ... may just need it a good cleaning. It's not an easy task to properly clean the microgrooves ... so don't discount the improvement a good cleaning regimen can make. I've had records in the past 17 years that I thought were groove damaged but ended up sounding better with a good cleaning.


NOTE: I don't use the submerge technique to clean my records ... I'm just referencing this video
as example of used legacy Vinyl that I would not buy or bother cleaning (1st) and one that I would (2nd).
 
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Some of these seem vg+ without scratches. The distortions is in the main of cases on right Channel
 
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Due to the smaller radius of the inner grooves their is progressively more reduction of linear resolution in the inner tracks. The wave lengths get gradually shorter and more compressed as you get to the inner tracks. Those more condensed tracks get harder for the stylus to track accurately. Add to the fact most alignments will put the cartridge more misaligned at that end of the LP, those two physical attributes are part of the vinyl medium. Some people will alter their alignment to help put the inner tracks more aligned as the higher resolution in the outer tracks usually helps minimize the effects. But that is usually classical music lovers as many of the great works its at the end where their is the most dynamic tracks. For the Rock and Pop genre they usually put the more popular songs at the beginning so the crappy songs that no one cares about gets the brunt of the distortion.
 
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Due to poor cleaning practices in the past, I would hear distortions towards the end of LP's. It sounded like it was recorded through a cotton filter Looking at the stylus at the end of play, I noticed a build up of crud on the stylus. Better cleaning was my savior.
 
Balifly said:
Are you sure about this "phenomenon" ? :idea:
Click to expand...

Why not... On this kind of old used record everything can be possible although I think the biggest problem cause is wasted inner groves. As OP says, this is not him used record from him collection and who know how its used previously, when and under what a stylus and pressure. Also we dont know what alignment method OP use to align cartridge and on what turntable. Only we can speculate what cause IGD problem without additional information.
I have a same cartridge what OP have AT440MLB and I dont have any IGD problems with or without dust in inner groves. AT440MLB is one of best tracking cartridge on market especially with its Micro Linear stylii shape.
AT440MLb is very sensitive cartridge and it need precise alignment adjustment to be perfect.
 
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chamaruco said:
sorry my newbie question:
Could an old used vinyl suffer of inner groove?
While most of my records don’t, some old records that come from relatives or garage sales do.
Maybe previous turntable had damaged they
My cartridge is at440mlb and is adjusted with overhang gauge
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Old vinyl can be damaged from mistracking. There is nothing you can do about it. If you do not want to deal with IDG from new or well preserved vinyl - get table with linear tracking tonearm.
 
Upgrading from an aluminum cantilever to a boron one will help clean up high frequency material and a cartridge/arm mis-match will also cause this but if a microline stylus is having trouble then that record is toast.
 
Ken Boyd said:
...But that is usually classical music lovers as many of the great works its at the end where their is the most dynamic tracks...
Click to expand...

Makes you wonder why nobody considered cutting with an opposite spiral and starting classical pieces from the label and playing to the outside and ending with a concentric groove at the outer edge.

There you go, problem solved! :)
 
FileFixer said:
I have a same cartridge what OP have AT440MLB and I dont have any IGD problems with or without dust in inner groves. AT440MLB is one of best tracking cartridge on market especially with its Micro Linear stylii shape.
AT440MLb is very sensitive cartridge and it need precise alignment adjustment to be perfect.
Click to expand...
Which weight did you set it? Mine is on 1.5 gr
 
chamaruco said:
Which weight did you set it? Mine is on 1.5 gr
Click to expand...

Mine is set to 1.65g. I did more then 30 tests with test LP and ARTA software to define what is best VTF and sound on this cart and to visual see where is difference between different pressure and at last define thet is 1.65 is best VTF for this stylus.
You can see over the web that people set this cart on 1.7g VTF for best soun and this is absolutly true if you define VTF on your ear. If you define this on something precise like measure and ear together I think that is 1.65g best VTF.

VTF.jpg
 
Ken Boyd said:
Due to the smaller radius of the inner grooves their is progressively more reduction of linear resolution in the inner tracks. The wave lengths get gradually shorter and more compressed as you get to the inner tracks. Those more condensed tracks get harder for the stylus to track accurately. Add to the fact most alignments will put the cartridge more misaligned at that end of the LP, those two physical attributes are part of the vinyl medium. Some people will alter their alignment to help put the inner tracks more aligned as the higher resolution in the outer tracks usually helps minimize the effects. But that is usually classical music lovers as many of the great works its at the end where their is the most dynamic tracks. For the Rock and Pop genre they usually put the more popular songs at the beginning so the crappy songs that no one cares about gets the brunt of the distortion.
Click to expand...
I think we have been here before. LPs are as capable of producing the same quality of sound on the inner grooves as the outer grooves. I challenge anyone to come up with any reference that says that is not so. If you can produce quality Quad sound on the inner grooves stereo is a cake walk. Inner grooves challenge the cartridge because the same amount of information is spread over a shorter distance. Worn stylii or low end stylii may cause you to notice this more because of the demands of the inner groove.
 
That said on the same record one side suffers, one doesn't.
So I suppose is the previous treatment of that side of that record to affect the sound...isn't.
 
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