Action issues on acoustic guitar

[dnewma04]

I have an "Aspen" brand acoustic guitar, it's labeled an AD-25, which I'll assume is a Martin D-25 clone from Japan, although, this may have preceded the D-25. Which might make it a Guild D-25 clone. In any case, I'm a total guitar noob and as far as I know, it's a dreadnought with a mahogany body and spruce top.

I had it set up at one point which helped the action, but over time, it's raised. I noticed that behind the bridge, the body has raised up, when removing the strings it flattens right back out. When I got it, it had steel strings on it but in a recent thread, someone mentioned that some acoustics meant for nylon strings will exhibit this behavior when outfitted with steel strings.

Any thoughts about whether I should swap to nylon strings and if so, does anyone have recommendations? Are there other things I might be able to do? I notice that inside the body, it doesn't have the allen head adjustment that some other acoustics do.

From what I've read about the brand, they made decent quality guitars and it's in pristine shape, so i'd like to keep it if it's a simple correction.

 

[1tumbleweed]

If there's no truss rod in the neck, it may very well be intended for nylon strings, but not necessarily. Some older steel-string guitars didn't have them, either. What does the bridge look like? Does it have a normal steel type bridge, or pass-through holes?

If you do want to try it with nylons, give the D'Addario EJ45s a shot, they're good and they're inexpensive.

EDIT: If your bridge has pegs, it's for steel strings. If it has pass through holes, it is probably for nylons. If you don't feel like tieing the EJ45s, you can use EJ33 ball end strings.

 

[tchuck]

You may also have an issue with the bracing on the back side of the top. It shouldn't be flexing a noticeable amount... Definitely go with some nylon strings, or at least some lighter gauge steelies.

 

[Dmannnnn]

If the movement is caused by string tension on the neck, a truss rod adjustment can bring it back. However, if the problem is really at the bridge, it is more trouble. You can try to sand down the bottom of the saddle (bridge ivory), but this can only go so low. A neck reset is probably not economically viable on this guitar. If you can't lower the saddle enough as it is, you may also be able to thin out the bridge (sand it down) to go lower. A little truss rod and a little saddle adjustment together might bring it back. If there has been too much tension on those top braces they may not come back down.

To check the neck/truss rod adjustment (neck relief), fret your low E at the first fret. At the same time use your right thumb to fret it right at the body/neck joint. Then use your riight index finger to tap the string in the middle of the neck. It should have a very small amount of clearance above the frets, .01" is a good starting point (well made guitars will play cleanly with less clearance than cheaper guitars). If the string is already laying on the frets, you neck is bowed too far back. If there is a large gap, your neck is bowed forward. You can also check this on the high E string.

As always I would recommend taking it to a luthier for an evaluation. He should do this for free.

 

[dr*audio]

Dave, can you post a picture, full frontal? There may be a truss rod access on the headstock near the nut. Many older Japanese guitars have a triangular cover there, that you remove to get to the truss rod. The neck must have a certain amount of relief in it at the midpoint between the 12th fret and the nut. What you do is press the low e string down at the 12th fret and the first fret, while looking at the clearance between the low e and the fret at the midpoint. There should be a small gap, like .010" If it is alot more, the truss rod should be tightened. The top should not belly. The fact that it sinks back down with the tension off makes me think there is a loose brace. With the tension removed you can tap on the top with a knuckle, all over. If you hear a snapping sound, there is a loose brace underneath. You can also press on the top in various places and listen for a creaking sound, that indicates a loose brace. Stewart Macdonald has a cool new tool to glue braces:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Supplies:_Applicators,_syringes/Brace_Gluing_Wedge_.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=265230
You can also squirt the glue under the brace with a hypodermic, then wiggle the brace back and forth to work the glue under it. I use a 1/2" automotive rubber gas hose, cut to length wedged up under the brace as a jack to hold it in place.

 

[dnewma04]

Warren,

There is truss rod access near the nut. I removed the strings yesterday, so access should be easy. I'd estimate that it belied up a good 1/16" of an inch, perhaps slightly more. When removing the strings, it settled back down. I'll poke around and look for a loose brace.

Thanks for the tips, everyone.

 

[dr*audio]

Warren,

There is truss rod access near the nut. I removed the strings yesterday, so access should be easy. I'd estimate that it belied up a good 1/16" of an inch, perhaps slightly more. When removing the strings, it settled back down. I'll poke around and look for a loose brace.

Thanks for the tips, everyone.

Do the brace first, if there is a loose one. Then after the glue has dried for 24 hours (use an aliphatic wood glue, like yellow Elmer's Wood Glue) put the strings on and check the neck relief. Adjust the truss rod with tension on the neck, only 1/4 turn at a time. You can pull back on the neck to relieve some of the tension and make it easier to turn the truss rod. It should be a normal thread, clockwise to tighten the rod and straighten the neck.

 

[spideyjack]

i would take it to your locally owned and operated music store (if your town still has one) and have it looked at, maybe buy a humidifier and a new strap while you are there, help preserve a dying species.

 

[Jovinyl]

Been reading this thread. The Aspen is a keeper. My opinion. I have 2. 1 Hummingbird clone and hotrodded LP copy. When I got the Hummingbird It had the belly issue soundhole to bridge. AK'er recommeded JL bridge DR. for that problem. The back of bridge did look like it was going to pull up in back sooner or later. Changed the tuning machines to Grovers, Gibson style. Gave it a good cleaning. I think I had 11-48s strings on it at the time. Brought it in to have it checkout and setup. Got it back with dressed frets, bracing checked, bone nut and saddle bridge re-glued. This part might be part of your bridge issue. Was recommended I go no higher than 10's so you might have to step down on your string guage. This guitar turned out to be the best finger style guitar I own and good Jazz with a pick style. I posted this info just to let you know the quality of Aspen guitars. With bridge repair, proper setup and string match. You will have a nice Guitar. :thmbsp:

 

[dnewma04]

i would take it to your locally owned and operated music store (if your town still has one) and have it looked at, maybe buy a humidifier and a new strap while you are there, help preserve a dying species.

I took it there initially to get it restrung and setup. I was very happy with the results and service. I paid 40.00 more locally for my daughters guitar than I could have paid online. I'm all about supporting local business, especially living in SE Mich.

Been reading this thread. The Aspen is a keeper. My opinion. I have 2. 1 Hummingbird clone and hotrodded LP copy. When I got the Hummingbird It had the belly issue soundhole to bridge. AK'er recommeded JL bridge DR. for that problem. The back of bridge did look like it was going to pull up in back sooner or later. Changed the tuning machines to Grovers, Gibson style. Gave it a good cleaning. I think I had 11-48s strings on it at the time. Brought it in to have it checkout and setup. Got it back with dressed frets, bracing checked, bone nut and saddle bridge re-glued. This part might be part of your bridge issue. Was recommended I go no higher than 10's so you might have to step down on your string guage. This guitar turned out to be the best finger style guitar I own and good Jazz with a pick style. I posted this info just to let you know the quality of Aspen guitars. With bridge repair, proper setup and string match. You will have a nice Guitar. :thmbsp:

I've read everything I can find (not much) about Aspens and if there is one consistent thing about them, it's that everyone is surprised at how good they are and how good they sound. To the point where it's not unusual for people to say they put away their Taylors and Martins. I think the latter is likely an exaggeration or stretch of the truth, but it is a nice guitar, as far as I can tell.

The local shop that set it up was asking about it when they tuned it up, he said he was impressed with the tone.

Do the brace first, if there is a loose one. Then after the glue has dried for 24 hours (use an aliphatic wood glue, like yellow Elmer's Wood Glue) put the strings on and check the neck relief. Adjust the truss rod with tension on the neck, only 1/4 turn at a time. You can pull back on the neck to relieve some of the tension and make it easier to turn the truss rod. It should be a normal thread, clockwise to tighten the rod and straighten the neck.

Played around with it today, didn't find anything loose or noisy. I might just bring it in for them to have a look before buying any strings.

Here are some pics. Solid spruce top, mahogany sides, mahogany neck, appears to be ebony fretboard. Frets are in good shape. There is a small worn spot in the fret board in the second position below the second string, but I didn't notice it until the strings were removed.

 

[dr*audio]

Nice looking vintage Asian guitar. If the braces aren't loose, then go with light or extra light gauge strings. It may not be very strongly constructed.

 

[Jovinyl]

I've read everything I can find (not much) about Aspens and if there is one consistent thing about them, it's that everyone is surprised at how good they are and how good they sound. To the point where it's not unusual for people to say they put away their Taylors and Martins. I think the latter is likely an exaggeration or stretch of the truth, but it is a nice guitar, as far as I can tell.

The local shop that set it up was asking about it when they tuned it up, he said he was impressed with the tone."

Funny you should say that about the Martins and the Taylors. I have a Gibson J-50 and an Alvarez Yari DY-73CS resting in their cases. I keep the Aspen out on a stand ready to play
That is a nice looking guitar. I sure you will find it a nice player.

 

[spideyjack]

I took it there initially to get it restrung and setup. I was very happy with the results and service. I paid 40.00 more locally for my daughters guitar than I could have paid online. I'm all about supporting local business, especially living in SE Mich.

right on! fight the power

that looks like a really fun guitar btw!

I'm no expert but maybe from the same factory as 70's Alvarez?

 

[Jovinyl]

Just curious if you have your Aspen steup and playing and your thoughts on it.

 

[dnewma04]

Got the new strings installed. The bellying is less noticeable but so far, I haven't been able to get the adjustments correct to stop it from buzzing. I also haven't had any real chance to play around with it, either. I had some Martin strings, don't recall which, but they were extra lights. They sure are easier to play, but I lost what feels like 50% of my output/tone.

Fotno recommended some John Pearse strings and I'll be pursuing those next.

 

[Jovinyl]

Got the new strings installed. The bellying is less noticeable but so far, I haven't been able to get the adjustments correct to stop it from buzzing. I also haven't had any real chance to play around with it, either. I had some Martin strings, don't recall which, but they were extra lights. They sure are easier to play, but I lost what feels like 50% of my output/tone.

Fotno recommended some John Pearse strings and I'll be pursuing those next.

If the bellying is from bridge to sound hole the Bridge Dr. might help. Judging by my stash of strings. I guess It was 11's that I should'nt go higher as I use D' Angelico extra light 011-050 Phosper bronze for fingerpicking. Thought I would also mention the Bridge Dr. gave me more bottom out of the lower strings. Hope you get it right. Makes a good player for what it is.

 

[dnewma04]

The bellying is occurring behind the bridge, but it's much less noticeable with these strings.

 

[dr*audio]

The bellying is occurring behind the bridge, but it's much less noticeable with these strings.

It is normal to get somewhat less sound with lighter strings. However, if it's buzzing, then your work isn't done and you won't get the best tone or volume until it's properly set up.
With the lighter strings the truss rod now must be loosened to give you the correct neck relief. Press the low E down at the 14th fret and the first fret and sight between the low E and the fret at the mid point. Loosen the truss rod until you get just enough play that if you tap the string at the mid point while holding it down at the ends, you get it to make a slapping sound. The gap should be about the thickness of a piece of paper. If the neck isn't true or the frets need leveling, it may require more relief.
Next check the nut height. Press each string down at the third fret and look at the clearance between the string and the first fret. Should be about the thickness of paper. If it's high you file down the slots. Too low, put baking power in the slot and a drop of superglue, then file it down when it hardens.

 

[markw300d]

I had an old Ovation Folklore with the belly issue but the saddle was shimmed and removing it made the string height about right. It was a great player and I just lived with the belly.

I PM'd ya about the John Pearse strings. I can send you set to try.

That JLD bridge doctor is an interesting devise that has worked great on some guitars and not so great on others.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html

good luck...

 

[Jovinyl]

What the heck! here is a shot of mine.