Advanced stylus shapes and their relative merits

[ow81]

Hi,

At the moment I have a Sumiko Ranier cartridge with a bonded elliptical stylus. I personally really like the sound of the cartridge so far, but realise there are firstly nude ellipticals which will offer a step up the sound ladder, and then more advanced shapes which will be a further improvement.
The thing I don't really understand is with Audio Technica the hierarchy of shapes seems to go conical, bonded elliptical, nude elliptical, microline, shibata then line contact or special line contact as they call it, but with for example the LP Gear Vessel cartridge it seems to super elliptical, line contact, Shibata, then Microline at the top of the tree. Other manufacturers also seem to vary. So what I'm confused about is audio Technica's line contact a different and therefore "better" shape than LP gear line contact? It seems there's a fair amount of marketing BS with the stylus shapes but obviously I can see how different shapes are able to reach deeper into the grooves and retrieve more information. I have only really got into hifi over the last few years despite being into music all my life. I definitely can appreciate how a good system can increase enjoyment of your music considerably, my system thus far is fairly budget but obviously light years away from the all in one class d amp micro systems I used to have in the past. Basically I'm trying to work at at what point the rule of diminishing returns applies to hifi gear. Surely the room you have your system in must result in significant limitations, and the quality of the recordings you're listening to (I now notice how some of my records and CDs are just not mastered anywhere near as well as others.
So going back to the styli question, is a Microline streets ahead of a nude elliptical etc.
Anyway I'm waffling on here but I do find a lot of hifi reviews so wooly and flowery that I don't really understand what I'm supposed interpet from them. I suspect there's a massive helping of BS in most of them. I think I definitely need a super hyper mega vivid special line contact diamond to achieve that liquid fluid sound with great timing and dynamics and a holographic 5d spectral cosmic soundstage, or something.

 

[Chet63]

is a Microline streets ahead of a nude elliptical etc.

no

 

[krautmaster]

The Audio Technica microline stylus (ML) track very well and have practically no inner groove distortion and can last a very very long time - kind of a no brainer to move up to one of these. The AT-VM95ML is a real bargain as is the better sounding VM-540ML. While the ML stylus is priced lower than the Shibata, it will last twice as long - some folks on the forum who do re-tipping say that a well worn ML sounds like a new Shibata.
There are a lot of folks on the forum that are married to old tech cartridges (Pickering, Stanton, Shure, etc.) and they just love their old tech elliptical stylus and that is all they'll ever recommend- many have never tried a new ML because they would have to buy a new cartridge...

 

[Mr Boochie]

Hi,

So going back to the styli question, is a Microline streets ahead of a nude elliptical etc.

Anyway I'm waffling on here but I do find a lot of hifi reviews so wooly and flowery that I don't really understand what I'm supposed interpet from them. I suspect there's a massive helping of BS in most of them. I think I definitely need a super hyper mega vivid special line contact diamond to achieve that liquid fluid sound with great timing and dynamics and a holographic 5d spectral cosmic soundstage, or something.

One thing to note: The alignment of the tonearm and cartridge becomes more critical --- to get the benefits of these styluses with smaller dimensions.

It would be best to have a turntable setup that allows for these finer adjustments.

 

[krautmaster]

One thing to note: The alignment of the tonearm and cartridge becomes more critical --- to get the benefits of these styluses with smaller dimensions.

It would be best to have a turntable setup that allows for these finer adjustments.

I would recommend using a test record to ensure good cartridge alignment. I use this one:

Hi-Fi News - Analogue Test LP: The Producer's Cut

The world's largest online retailer of high-end audio, audiophile music, and accessories. We specialize in vinyl records and turntables.

www.musicdirect.com

 

[Mr Boochie]

 

[mr_petit]

One thing to note: The alignment of the tonearm and cartridge becomes more critical --- to get the benefits of these styluses with smaller dimensions.

TBH I also hear the benefits of a microline stylus on IGD with fairly standard 70's turntables that don't have VTA or azimuth alignment possibilities and a normal factory alignment on the OEM headshell.
On those turntables the Microline stylus also performs vastly superior on tackeling IGD compared to bog standard bonded conical or bonded elliptical stylii and also on nude ellipticals.

 

[Mr Boochie]

TBH I also hear the benefits of a microline stylus on IGD with fairly standard 70's turntables that don't have VTA or azimuth alignment possibilities and a normal factory alignment on the OEM headshell.
On those turntables the Microline stylus also performs vastly superior on tackeling IGD compared to bog standard bonded conical or bonded elliptical stylii and also on nude ellipticals.

I moved away from the tonearm and tables, which don't have complete adjustments. But if the alignment is close to ideal, I'm sure the finer stylus has better resolution.

 

[ow81]

So my deck doesn't have vertical

The Audio Technica microline stylus (ML) track very well and have practically no inner groove distortion and can last a very very long time - kind of a no brainer to move up to one of these. The AT-VM95ML is a real bargain as is the better sounding VM-540ML. While the ML stylus is priced lower than the Shibata, it will last twice as long - some folks on the forum who do re-tipping say that a well worn ML sounds like a new Shibata.
There are a lot of folks on the forum that are married to old tech cartridges (Pickering, Stanton, Shure, etc.) and they just love their old tech elliptical stylus and that is all they'll ever recommend- many have never tried a new ML because they would have to buy a new cartridge...

I have a VMN95E cartridge that I could swap out the stylus for the ML needle. The vm540ml is within budget for me, what does it have over the vmn95ml? Does it have a warmer sound, the 95e is nice and crisp sounding I think my deck has a removable headshell, so I guess no harm in having several headshells with different carts for different music genres. I like the warmth of the Rainier, would the vessel A3SV have the same kind of warmth with more detail to it? Occasionally the Rainier sounds a tiny bit fuzzy on odd tracks.

 

[mr_petit]

But if the alignment is close to ideal, I'm sure the finer stylus has better resolution.

Of course, any stylus will profit from ideal alignment. And maybe with the microline stylus that gain might be higher than with other, less advanced less superior stylus shapes.
But I'm convinced that a microline stylus will benefit most turntables out there, unless you have the worst of the worst turntable, crossley class and such. But you don't need a super high grade audiophile non plus ultra turntable to benefit from a microline stylus. A standard turntable will profit too when it comes to IGD.

That tacet test record has a very good track to show the differences in performances with different stylus shapes. The inner track of the fricatives test.
Member @JP made some very nice samples to show this, using the AT-VM95 cartridge with the different types of stylii that are available for this cartridge.
The interesting thing about these samples is of course that only the stylus tip is the variable. Everything else is the same, so the cartridgebody/coils, cantilever, suspension etc. So the differences that you here in these samples below is just from the stylus tip (these are new, unworn stylii):

AT-VM95C (standard bonded conical stylus tip):

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

AT-VM95E (standard bonded elliptical stylus tip):

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

AT-VM95EN (nude elliptical stylus tip):

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

AT-VM95SH (nude shibata stylus tip):

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

AT-VM95ML (nude MicroLine stylus tip):

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

As anyone can hear, the AT-VM95ML is the best sounding stylus tip and IGD is far less than especially the bonded conical and bonded elliptical tips. Not even in the same league.
The nude shibata is a close second to the ML. However, the Microline has another benefit and that is superior life, and that it's sound performance changes less over it's lifetime compared to other stylus profiles.

@JP also posted a lot of other samples from cartridges (some are in the grail catagory) from this test track in this post. I listened to all of them quite extensively and did blind testing (on myself) and come to the conclusion that the ones with ML stylus all come out as best (with the AT-150MLX as best).
However, I think my AT-440mla performs the test even slightly better. I also ran this test on another forum, where my AT-440mla sample also was voted as best:

https://audio.home.xs4all.nl/zooi/draaitafels/ABcomparison/fricatives/fricatives%20inner%20at440mla175grnew48khz.flac

However, in comparison to that AT-150mlx, I expect that I track my AT-440mla with a slightly higher VTF might explain that difference (it's not 'audiophileness' the turntable, my €75 dual 721 against an sp-10 with epa arm)

 

[mr_petit]

I have a VMN95E cartridge that I could swap out the stylus for the ML needle. The vm540ml is within budget for me, what does it have over the vmn95ml?

The AT-VM540ML is technically more advanced. It has a tapered cantilever, and the coil setup in cartridge body is better. It's coils measure more linear across the frequency range and have less deviation between the left&right channel.
As for it's performance in igd, you could listen to my AT-440mla sample in my post above; it's almost identical to the AT-VM540ML
However, the AT-VM540ML needs a very low capacitance cable and phonopre. If it has too much capacitance loading, it can sound a bit aggressive in the high notes (above 10khz), which is the opposite of a 'warm' sound. The at-vm95ML has a natural decay in that frequency range, so the amplification from that capacitance loading equals out a bit.

As far as IGD goes on normal records, it's obviously not as present as in the samples I posted above (it's a test track for a reason), but it happens in normal modern records.
@JP also made a topic about a comparison between a very expensive Lyra MC cartridge and an Ortofon blue cartridge which sound extremely the same: no one could hear the difference in the blind test:

Cartridge Preference Comparison

Mounted a new cartridge up today, and while giving it a listen I thought it sounded very similar to one I listened to a few weeks ago, so I did some comparisons... and indeed it does! Thought it would be fun to see what others thought. Here are four different samples in a simple A/B format...

audiokarma.org

However, that lyra cartridge is equipped with a Microline stylus and the ortofon blue with a nude elliptical stylus.
When JP makes a blind test of the inner track on the norah jones record used in that topic, suddenly everyone can hear the difference.
This is the post with that inner track blind test:

Cartridge Preference Comparison

Mounted a new cartridge up today, and while giving it a listen I thought it sounded very similar to one I listened to a few weeks ago, so I did some comparisons... and indeed it does! Thought it would be fun to see what others thought. Here are four different samples in a simple A/B format...

audiokarma.org

So also on normal modern records, a microline stylus makes a difference on the inner tracks when it comes to inner groove distortion.

 

[ow81]

Before I bought a new turntable I had three used dual CS505s, I definitely think the floating subchassis made the turntable less prone to skipping when I stand up, tap my foot on the floor etc. Shame the used Duals died as I think that was a far superior turntable to my new projects. They had VTA adjustment. I might pick another one up used that has been a bit better cared for, I only paid £30 for the ones I had. There's a lot of crooks on eBay over here. I think it's people who do house clearances and don't really know what they're selling but will claim it's in full working order and tiptop condition. I've seen hifi dealers selling used cs505s for around £120 and Thorens TD166s for around £200, maybe it's worth buying one from a dealer that's been serviced and looked after more. Is the Thorens a really good deck? Seen some got sale with no tonearm, was that how they were sold originally or just where they have been upgraded?

 

[mr_petit]

They had VTA adjustment.

Are you sure the CS505 has VTA adjustment? afaik they have an ULM arm without that.
I think a dual 721 or 704 is a better choice if you're looking for a dual.

I don't know if a subchassis performs better against skipping. For a non subchassis table it's important to have a heavy base and good compliant and damping feet. The technics sl-1200 is a pretty good performer with it's heavy base.
The difficulty with subchassis turntables is to get them completely level. That also influences playback performance. Thorens have adjustable springs for that; something that (most?) duals miss). With records with different weights (120gr, 180gr pressings etc) that also infulences the level of the turntable if it's a subchassis.

 

[ow81]

Are you sure the CS505 has VTA adjustment? afaik they have an ULM arm without that.
I think a dual 721 or 704 is a better choice if you're looking for a dual.

I might well be wrong, excuse me for being dumb but it has antiskating on a dial next to the arm and adjustable counterweight I think, what was the adjustment perpendicular to the arm, I assumed this was the VTA adjustment, or was that just the tracking force adjustment. I last owned a 505 about 9 years ago so my memory may be wrong. I've only really started getting into hifi properly fairly recently I probably didn't have the Duals setup well at the time, lol, they sounded great from memory but i was probably annihilating my vinyl without realising back then.

 

[mr_petit]

they sounded great from memory but i was probably annihilating my vinyl without realising back then.

Well, with an ULM arm you won't have any problems aligning the cartridge as only 1 way to mount it is possible. But it also limits the use of normal cartridges.
I know there are various adapters for the different ulm arms to make mounting a normal 1/2" cartridge possible, but I've never made a study out of whether or not an accurate alignment is possible with those, nor the possibility to mount heavy cartridges with a low stylus pressure (like an AT-150mlx etc), as the normal ulm system uses very light cartridges with low VTF, so the counterweight must be placed to the back quite a bit to proplerly mount an AT-150mlx or AT-740ml. (these are ~5gr heavier than an ULM cartridge!)

 

[ow81]

Well, with an ULM arm you won't have any problems aligning the cartridge as only 1 way to mount it is possible. But it also limits the use of normal cartridges.
I know there are various adapters for the different ulm arms to make mounting a normal 1/2" cartridge possible, but I've never made a study out of whether or not an accurate alignment is possible with those, nor the possibility to mount heavy cartridges with a low stylus pressure (like an AT-150mlx etc), as the normal ulm system uses very light cartridges with low VTF, so the counterweight must be placed to the back quite a bit to proplerly mount an AT-150mlx or AT-740ml. (these are ~5gr heavier than an ULM cartridge!)

The Project I've got currently has a pretty low mass arm; 8g, it's an S Shaped arm with a standard sme headshell mount . The Sumiko Rainier it was fitted with has the same compliance figures as the vm540ml, so I assume the AT cartridge would be ok with the arm? From what I've read it's not a great match but should be ok? But am I right in saying that nagaoka, grado, carts would be too low compliance for the arm? Would the Thorens be a decent used deck to buy if in good order? What price point would you say gets you a decent deck? I know the project debut I have is definitely entry level and even more so the primary E I have upstairs. The Rega planar 3 gets great write ups but to me it looks very much like a project deck, I guess the tonearms are better on the regas?

 

[cafe latte]

no

Yes

 

[krautmaster]

oops...double posting again...damn fat fingers

 

[krautmaster]

The Project I've got currently has a pretty low mass arm; 8g, it's an S Shaped arm with a standard sme headshell mount . The Sumiko Rainier it was fitted with has the same compliance figures as the vm540ml, so I assume the AT cartridge would be ok with the arm? From what I've read it's not a great match but should be ok? But am I right in saying that nagaoka, grado, carts would be too low compliance for the arm? Would the Thorens be a decent used deck to buy if in good order? What price point would you say gets you a decent deck? I know the project debut I have is definitely entry level and even more so the primary E I have upstairs. The Rega planar 3 gets great write ups but to me it looks very much like a project deck, I guess the tonearms are better on the regas?

I have two Rega P3's, and while their RB330 tonearm is very good, the rest is meh... cannot even get in the same neighborhood with my Technics SL-1200GR2 (but that is a $2200 table, then you have to add your own cartridge which bumps the price up that much more).

IMO a Technics SL-100C or SL-1500C are much better tables than the P3 or Pro-Ject tables for about the same money. An SL-1500C with an AT-VM540ML cart is about all the table many people will ever need. (The SL-100C is $1000, the SL-1500C around $1300).

 

[cafe latte]

Hi,

At the moment I have a Sumiko Ranier cartridge with a bonded elliptical stylus. I personally really like the sound of the cartridge so far, but realise there are firstly nude ellipticals which will offer a step up the sound ladder, and then more advanced shapes which will be a further improvement.
The thing I don't really understand is with Audio Technica the hierarchy of shapes seems to go conical, bonded elliptical, nude elliptical, microline, shibata then line contact or special line contact as they call it, but with for example the LP Gear Vessel cartridge it seems to super elliptical, line contact, Shibata, then Microline at the top of the tree. Other manufacturers also seem to vary. So what I'm confused about is audio Technica's line contact a different and therefore "better" shape than LP gear line contact? It seems there's a fair amount of marketing BS with the stylus shapes but obviously I can see how different shapes are able to reach deeper into the grooves and retrieve more information. I have only really got into hifi over the last few years despite being into music all my life. I definitely can appreciate how a good system can increase enjoyment of your music considerably, my system thus far is fairly budget but obviously light years away from the all in one class d amp micro systems I used to have in the past. Basically I'm trying to work at at what point the rule of diminishing returns applies to hifi gear. Surely the room you have your system in must result in significant limitations, and the quality of the recordings you're listening to (I now notice how some of my records and CDs are just not mastered anywhere near as well as others.
So going back to the styli question, is a Microline streets ahead of a nude elliptical etc.
Anyway I'm waffling on here but I do find a lot of hifi reviews so wooly and flowery that I don't really understand what I'm supposed interpet from them. I suspect there's a massive helping of BS in most of them. I think I definitely need a super hyper mega vivid special line contact diamond to achieve that liquid fluid sound with great timing and dynamics and a holographic 5d spectral cosmic soundstage, or something.

ML or micro ridge are far superior to elliptical. ML and micro ridge are better than Shibata.
The life of an elliptical at 2g is around 300 hours and a Shibata is around 600 compared to a micro ridge which is around 1000.
Shibata tracks inner grooves the same am a 0.2x0.7 ( fine elliptical) and these cuts do a nose dive with the highs on the inner grooves compared to a micro ridge. If you are doubt do to thr Orbray Web page and have a look at the graphs in the micro ridge page comparing their line contact ( Shibata) with micro ridge. Outer grooves they are similar but micro ridge still wins on highs but inner grooves there is no contest.
This ability to track highs lies at the door of minor radius and this is why a Shibata is the same in this respect to a fine elliptical as the minor radius is the same.
Lastly record wear. An elliptical not only wears faster than Shibata and micro ridge but it wears the vinyl too. In tests a 0.2x0.7 tracking at 1.5g marks the highs on the groove in one play a Shibata ( old test Microline not tested) did no damage in 10 plays.
Lots of reasons exotic stylus are better than elliptical.
Chris