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All in one setup, or two independent systems?

J

JRHemmen

New Member
im reposting this here because I believe it's a better sub forum than where it originally was.

I'm looking for some guidance on my system building. I currently have a Yamaha RX-V477 hooked to an LG TV with a Little Bear Phono Tube pre. My turntable is a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC. For speakers I have the Fluance AV-HTB for center and rears and Sansui SP-2000's that I just recapped in the front, plus a 10" powered Polk Audio sub. I also own a Sansui 5000a that needs rebuild as it is definitely blown. I'm looking to improve the setup for a relatively low amount of money. I'm looking at the Wharfedale Diamond 240s. I currently have a Spotify subscription but I'm thinking of switching to Tidal for the lossless streaming.

How would you all recommend I set things up? Do I recap the 5000a and use that with the SP-2000s and Debut Carbon as an independent setup? Or do I put the SP-2000's in storage and use Wharfedales all around on one system (with the Yamaha)? I was hoping to use a separate independent amp for the front channels, but Yamaha doesn't offer pre-outs until the RX-V677 and higher.

Also, I'm going to be using my Komplete Audio 6 (Native Instruments' audio interface) as a DAC with my laptop.
 
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Second question, could I use the Rec Out on my receiver to power a different amp for front speakers, or would this mix everything down to stereo? There's nothing about it in my manual, and I don't have pre-outs specifically for front speakers. I'm aware that this pre-out would skip over all EQ and volume controls.
 
cademan said:
Short answer is yes!



Just need to be able to control the overall gain either with a separate preamp or some kind of passive control device.
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Ok, great. My only concern is that it won't be sending just the front two channels, but all 5.1 mixed down to stereo. This would defeat my surround setup if the front speakers were playing all channels
 
The best way to do surround sound is to match the front 3 speakers. Running it any other way can be fine but not the best it can be. I haven't heard either the Fluance or Sansui speakers you have, so they may or may not play nicely together in the front. Rears can be just about anything so long as their efficiency and power handling is fairly similar to the others. A possible option is to run a phantom center to avoid a mismatch but depending on your room layout that may or may not work well.

If you're set on using the Sansuis for stereo, then I would recommend going the 2 separate systems route ideally. If you can get the 5000a in service again, that would likely be a better match than your Yamaha. The Sansuis are probably nice for mains in surround sound, but I feel like your needs are diverging.

I wouldn't recommend using the rec out for front amplification unless you are doing stereo only - as you noted it will play all the channels in the front which will kill your surround image. I've never tried it, but I've heard it won't work on digital inputs anyways which kills its use for surround.

Is there a particular reason you want to use a power amp for the fronts? It may or may not be necessary depending on how hard you're pushing the Yamaha. Also, is there a particular reason why you wouldn't buy the matching Fluance speakers to add to your system as the fronts? Doing that would be the best and cheapest option in my opinion to complete your surround sound system speaker-wise.
 
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Nightwisher said:
The best way to do surround sound is to match the front 3 speakers. Running it any other way can be fine but not the best it can be. I haven't heard either the Fluance or Sansui speakers you have, so they may or may not play nicely together in the front. Rears can be just about anything so long as their efficiency and power handling is fairly similar to the others.

If you're set on using the Sansuis for stereo, then I would definitely recommend going the 2 separate systems route. If you can get the 5000a in service again, that would likely be a better match than your Yamaha.

I wouldn't recommend using the rec out for front amplification unless you are doing stereo only - as you noted it will play all the channels in the front which will kill your surround image. I've never tried it, but I've heard it won't work on digital inputs which kills its use for surround anyways.

Is there a particular reason you want to use a power amp for the fronts? It may or may not be necessary depending on how hard you're pushing the Yamaha. Also, is there a particular reason why you wouldn't buy the matching Fluance speakers to add to your system as the fronts? Doing that would be the best and cheapest option in my opinion to complete your surround sound system speaker-wise.
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I have the Fluance front speakers, but the Sansuis are by far a better speaker. I want to use a power amp so I can get into the world of tubes (besides my phono pre) without breaking the bank. I'm picking up a Marantz SR6005 tomorrow morning. Now my question is, should I buy new front speakers (I'm thinking wharfedale diamond 240's), or a power amp for the front speakers? Or some combination of both? The Wharfedales are $1,000, so I'm willing to consider anything in that price range for speaker/amp combo. TIA.
 
JRHemmen said:
I have the Fluance front speakers, but the Sansuis are by far a better speaker. I want to use a power amp so I can get into the world of tubes (besides my phono pre) without breaking the bank. I'm picking up a Marantz SR6005 tomorrow morning. Now my question is, should I buy new front speakers (I'm thinking wharfedale diamond 240's), or a power amp for the front speakers? Or some combination of both? The Wharfedales are $1,000, so I'm willing to consider anything in that price range for speaker/amp combo. TIA.
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I seriously doubt tubes would work very well for surround sound. If the tubes are in the amp, then it's highly unlikely it would have the dynamic wattage you would need. A tube preamp would probably be okay. Using tubes for the fronts and solid state for the other channels would mess with your surround image a bit as well I would imagine. I recommend just using the Marantz for surround and then using the tube amp just for stereo, that way you get the best of both worlds.

Okay, so if the Sansuis are displeasing to you and you like the Wharfedales better, go for them. I've heard very good things about Wharfedales (I have heard great things about Fluance as well, which is why I asked). If that's your move, then I would recommend ditching the Fluance center in favor of a phantom center if you can make that work. The other Fluance speakers should do fine for rears - you could even use the Sansuis back there if you wanted to.
 
Nightwisher said:
I seriously doubt tubes would work very well for surround sound. If the tubes are in the amp, then it's highly unlikely it would have the dynamic wattage you would need. A tube preamp would probably be okay. Using tubes for the fronts and solid state for the other channels would mess with your surround image a bit as well I would imagine. I recommend just using the Marantz for surround and then using the tube amp just for stereo, that way you get the best of both worlds.

Okay, so if the Sansuis are displeasing to you and you like the Wharfedales better, go for them. I've heard very good things about Wharfedales (I have heard great things about Fluance as well, which is why I asked). If that's your move, then I would recommend ditching the Fluance center in favor of a phantom center if you can make that work. The other Fluance speakers should do fine for rears - you could even use the Sansuis back there if you wanted to.
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This seems like what I'll do then. The problem is that I listen to music and watch tv/movies equally, and don't have the space or the budget for two independent systems, as I think I'd hate the idea of spending $500 on an amplifier that could only be used for music, not movies too. The Fluance speakers were $200 for a set of five, so I know pretty much anything will be a big improvement. Given that I'll be moving into an apartment in a few months for college, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to downsize from surround to a 2.1 setup for movie watching. Plus without rear speakers, I can rearrange my furniture to give the front towers some more distance from both the wall and the listener's position.

The Sansuis aren't necessarily displeasing, they just don't have as clear of a sound as I'm looking for. I think they'd do great for vinyl (perhaps with the 5000a), but after hearing a multitude of demos on newer hi-fi gear, I know that clear sound is exactly what I'm looking for. I listen to a wide variety of music, and it all seems to sound fantastic on setups like B&W/McIntosh, whereas I personally feel the muddy sound of the Sansuis doesn't fit.

I've always bounced around trying every different configuration I could, for my computers, audio, TV, and all of that. I'm hoping to build a system where I feel I can finally leave it sit and be happy with it.
 
Nightwisher said:
I seriously doubt tubes would work very well for surround sound. If the tubes are in the amp, then it's highly unlikely it would have the dynamic wattage you would need. A tube preamp would probably be okay. Using tubes for the fronts and solid state for the other channels would mess with your surround image a bit as well I would imagine.
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This is simply incorrect. The type of amplifying device (tube/transistor) is irrelevant.

My mix of tubes and SS (front) and all SS for my rear works quite well for me. I have a hybrid preamp a SS electronic crossover and a DSP (only on subwoofer feeds) with tube driven ESL's. These devices and all my two channel sources are my dedicated two channel system.

When I place my preamp in bypass mode, turn on my processor, surround sources and SS driven (W/subwoofers and electronic crossover) rear ESL's the surround image sounds good to me and every other person that's heard it. I am however, limping along with a phantom center. I don't have enough space for another ESL.

Well, if I come across a single ESL57 I could try to squeeze it in.:D

Admittedly my system isn't for everyone. However, it was, is and always will be a dedicated two channel system to which I added surround/HT capability. I believe that I have the best of both camps. That being a no compromise very good sounding two channel system that with the flick of a switch becomes a good sounding surround/HT system. There is no compromising my two channel sound because that comes first. The only real compromise with surround/HT is using a phantom center.

Were I not using separates my system couldn't exist.
 
JRH: Regarding the missing pre-amp outputs on your Yamaha, you could always still cheat a bit via attenuators/voltage dividers on the speaker outputs. That would of course not really provide you with true pre-outs, as the power-amp section wouldn't be skipped, but it would fulfill the same purpose and wouldn't seem unlikely to hardly be worse in quality. And if one would implement the attenuator/voltage divider with comparatively high resistance/impedance, it would also fulfill the purpose of saving output power for the rest of the channels.

This may appear like an odd idea at the first glance, but in fact it's quite a common approach one can find in many active/powered subwoofers, that sport additional high-level/speaker-level inputs (or loop-throughs).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
JoeESP9 said:
This is simply incorrect. The type of amplifying device (tube/transistor) is irrelevant.
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So you're saying a ~15 watt/channel tube amp is fine for home theater? Even in a small room, that's pushing your luck on dynamic parts. Since most tube amps are relatively low powered except for some exceptions, that's a risky proposition. That's not to say it couldn't work, but I wouldn't want to invest in a tube amp and blow it during an on-screen explosion. I'll concede that tube/SS in the preamp sections might not make any difference because I haven't tried it, but I would personally rather keep the preamplification and amplification as close as possible on all channels.
 
Nightwisher said:
So you're saying a ~15 watt/channel tube amp is fine for home theater? Even in a small room, that's pushing your luck on dynamic parts. Since most tube amps are relatively low powered except for some exceptions, that's a risky proposition. That's not to say it couldn't work, but I wouldn't want to invest in a tube amp and blow it during an on-screen explosion. I'll concede that tube/SS in the preamp sections might not make any difference because I haven't tried it, but I would personally rather keep the preamplification and amplification as close as possible on all channels.
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Yea, the music paradise I looked at put out 6 watts per channel. I'd have to find speakers with a damn near perfect efficiency for that. My Sansuis are rated at 99dB, the Wharfedales are 89dB.
 
I just hooked the Marantz up, can't say that I'm too impressed. Xbox one sounded good, but my record player sounded flat. If I could get the menus working properly, maybe I could adjust the speakers.
 
Nightwisher said:
So you're saying a ~15 watt/channel tube amp is fine for home theater? Even in a small room, that's pushing your luck on dynamic parts. Since most tube amps are relatively low powered except for some exceptions, that's a risky proposition. That's not to say it couldn't work, but I wouldn't want to invest in a tube amp and blow it during an on-screen explosion. I'll concede that tube/SS in the preamp sections might not make any difference because I haven't tried it, but I would personally rather keep the preamplification and amplification as close as possible on all channels.
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I said no such thing about flea powered gear. Flea power is the same whether it's tube or SS. "Watts is Watts". Adequate power is just that. Whether it's tubes or transistors that produce it is irrelevant.

Where did you get the ludicrous idea that loud sounds will blow up a tube amp?

Perhaps you should do some research. My highly modified mono tube amps (Dynaco MKIII) were originally rated at 60 Watts each. I'm using ESL's which are known to be a difficult load. My MKIII's drive them quite well and they've never "blown up".

The real deal is that the power needed for the rear channels is substantially less than for the fronts. Even so I drive my rear channels with a pair of Adcom GFA-545's via a Behringer CX-2310. One drives my Acoustat Model 1's the other drives an Acoustat SPW-1 sub woofer. This has absolutely nothing to do wth the MKIII's driving my Spectra 22's or the pair of bridged Crowns that drive my front subwoofers.

As long as one has adequate power it makes no difference what produces it.
 
JoeESP9 said:
My highly modified mono tube amps (Dynaco MKIII) were originally rated at 60 Watts each.
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That's not representative of typical tube amp power. I agree that it doesn't matter what is producing the watts (watts is watts), however tube amps typically lack power, especially the budget ones. He even mentioned the tube amp he was looking at was only 6 watts a channel. Perhaps dynamic wattage isn't something you've researched - and that certainly effects the front channels during a movie.
 
On a side note, with this "new" amp, my front left channel is cutting in and out, on both vinyl and digital source. I don't recall it doing this on my old amplifier. There's no static at all, its just dropping in and out. Its extremely fatiguing on my ears, it reminds me of the inner ear pressure you experience whilst flying.

I don't think its the amplifier, as only certain ranges are cutting out. I believe some of the drivers in these 40+ year old speakers may finally be going. I'm going to swap the left and right in a bit and see if the issue follows over to the right channel.
 
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