Altec 890B Boleros in the house. 3000 G, 406Z drivers

[Bauhausler]

All;
A couple of new pairs of speakers in teh house today. I have still to unload and evaluate a pair of DCM original Time Windows, but I got these Altecs up and running as quick as I could. I have found pix of these with a Heppner-type tweeter, but this is what appears to be an earlier 3000 G tweet horn. The drivers all work and they play fine. The cabs are complete, but weathered and in need of refurbishing. They are un-dicked-with, thank heavens. I'm giving them a workout with an Accuphase P-300 amp and a Leo Kottke CD. The bass seems light. That could be due to the woofers stiffening up from age. They had been stored on a porch, so temperature might have something to do with it. Plus, this 900 SF overstuffed room eats bass. Also, they're sitting up in the air on a pair of Cornwalls, so no floor reinforcement.
I'll run them for a while and see if they loosen up. I REALLY like the mids from these already. Great clarity and presence.

They're also very heavy. About the size of Large Advents, but maybe 50% heavier. In addition to the 406Z midwoofer there's an identical looking passive.

 

[Nat]

I was just listening to Leo Kottke on a pair of 890 C Boleros, and had a somewhat different opinion -- I found the bass a little too rich. One one hand, they did a very nice job of sounding like one guitar, not two or more, but it was a big bassy guitar. It seemed like there was a warmth to everything I played. Pleasent, but not realy authentic, I thought.

 

[Rex Everything]

Nice Altec grab:thmbsp:. I have the version of these w/ the cone tweeter and the CTS drivers and passives, Altec model 886A.

Try turning the speaker over w/ the horn on top. This is how they are meant to be placed.

Enjoy

 

[Bauhausler]

I was just listening to Leo Kottke on a pair of 890 C Boleros, and had a somewhat different opinion -- I found the bass a little too rich. One one hand, they did a very nice job of sounding like one guitar, not two or more, but it was a big bassy guitar. It seemed like there was a warmth to everything I played. Pleasent, but not realy authentic, I thought.

These woofers are probably somewhat stiff. I'm sure it's been years since they were played. They're loosening up a bit now playing some St Germain with the bass turned up. I've been gradually reducing teh bass boost as they loosen up. It could take many hours to get them playing as they should.
I have them upside down because they're up in the air on a pair of Cornwalls. Putting them right side up would have the tweeter too high. After they loosen up I'll put them on the floor on tilted stands, back against the wall and see how that works. This room is a notorious bass hog that makes a lot of well balanced speakers sound thin.
I'm pretty sure the crossovers will need new caps. I'll go in and disconnect the tweeter cap, splicing in a film/foil cap. My experience with Altec xovr caps is that they develop a lot of resistance and the capacitance can be anywhere from +20% to -50%. There's a tweeter Lpad to adjust the level if the film cap brings it up too much.
I'd really like to hear this tweeter and midwoofer with a 15" woof in a big cab as a real 3-way fullrange system. The midrange and midbass are really outstanding sounding so far.

 

[Bauhausler]

I'm an idiot

I had them out of phase. The terminal strips are mirror imaged. I hooked them up in the dark and connected the polarity by cabinet orientation rather than by the barely visible terminal markings. I now have plenty of bass. I can't tell you how many times I've done that.

 

[Bauhausler]

I think I know why I like these

I've been listening to the Boleros for a while now in correct phase. The frequency balance is much better this way. Still not all the bass you could wish for, but that's the room problem. They sound somewhat like Lowthers to me. I had DX3s in Fidelio cabinets. I loved the midrange, but couldn't live with teh weak bass and 'shout' typical of Lowthers. These Boleros have a lot of the Lowthers' midrange clarity and detail, with better overall balance. Plus real top end from a small 3000G horn tweeter. I think one reason they sound that way is an excess of energy in the 'presence' region from 2000 - 3500 hz. I haven't run any tests yet, but that's what I'm expecting to find. I played some jazz with lots of brass on it and the horn instruments did stand out a lot. Almost to the point of glare. These are 20' away from me in this room. Closer might be a problem.
It's possible this excess energy might be a crossover component problem. If there's a cap across the woofer and it's gone open, the woofer would put out too much level in the crossover region, which I'm guessing from teh size of the tweeter horn is in the 3K range. I definitely need to get in there and fool with teh crossovers. The tweeter level is low, indicating the 40+ year old tweeter caps, which probably were not great to begin with have become resistive and lowered the level. I'll go in with oil caps if they're not too large, or film/foil if they're bigger caps (doubtful) and improve the tweeter response. If there is a woofer parallel cap I'll change it to whatever makes sense in teh context.
The question is if I'm going to do this should I completely strip out the parts & rehab the cabs now, or do a quickie xovr fix and do the cabs later? It depends on how ambitious I get.
I'm really enjoying using them (Archer Prewitt's great CD 'White Sky' right now), but I know they can be improved.
My friend LVB was not a big believer in crossover cap changes. I recapped his Boston A200s with good film/foils and metalized film caps and the change was IMMEDIATELY obvious. Now we're planning a way to recap the early DCM Time Windows I just found for him (one of his favorite speakers). Tha twill be a chore, but they're worth it.

 

[Bauhausler]

Update

I cracked the cabinets open yesterday and recapped them. The tweeter has a 3uf cap and the woofer has a small unmarked choke. The caps were replaced with good quality films from my stash. While I was in there I swapped the positions of the woofer and PR in one cabinet. This is so when they're positioned vertically the woofers can both be at the top and the tweeters 'outside', symmetrically. Judging from the cabinet wear, these have been used vertically all their lives, but one one has been upside down. They were built mirror imaged for horizontal symmetrical use, but the grille logos were attached for vertical use. I'll bet they sounded funny with one woofer 20" closer to the floor than the other. With the fresh caps I have to turn the tweeter attenuator from 0 to about 4 or 5 out of 15, so the old caps were definitely in teh way.
I'm still really impressed with teh mids from these. The clarity is quite amazing. Like a good Lowther, but with less peakiness in the upper mids (although there is some presence bump with the grilles off). The bass is a bit warm and uncontrolled. I'm going to try them with a powered sub rolling in around 100hz and a blocking cap on the Bolero's woofer to roll it out of the bottom octaves (100uf oil, probably). That should tighten up the bottom end.
I've been switching back and forth between these, my Klipsch Cornwalls and my 'new' Altec 605A's. I think I prefer the Boleros in everything but the lowest bass, where the Cornwalls' larger cabinet and big woofer rule. For the price (usually $100 - $200), I don't think the Boleros can be beat.

 

[westend]

Nice. I'd like to take a listen to those.

 

[ivan100000]

Gents:

I just came across this old thread here with quite an extensive & favorable review of a pair of Boleros.

For the past few years, I've had a pair of the later 890C's in my main setup, but they just don't sound right. I'm using a Fisher 400 CX-2 preamp and a McIntosh 225 power amp. I really want to like the speakers, but they sound one-dimensional and generally non-musical. By contrast, I have a 1950's Fisher TA-500 mono receiver in my bedroom that's running through an old KLH Six two-way that I've had forever; I listen to an FM jazz station on it a few nights a week, and I must say that I find the listening experience far more dynamic and enjoyable than my more expensive setup. When I swap the KLH with one of the Boleros to A/B the two speakers with the McIntosh setup, the KLH sounds much more pleasing.

Any suggestion as to what might be going on? Could it be a cap issue at the crossover that's causing me to be afflicted with mediocre tone? From briefly researching Bolero 890C reviews on the internet tonight, I find that for every quy who raves about the Boleros there's another guy who dismisses them as a bad design with an abnormally high crossover frequency.

Thanks for any insight you may have.

 

[Bauhausler]

Ivan; Thanks for posting. There are differences between the 890b that I have and the 890C, chiefly the different tweeter. The 890B has the 3000G tweeter which is very highly thought of ($250 - $350/pair used). the 890C uses a more ordinary horn probably made by Heppner.
The real gem here is the 406 woofer. That's what most of the favorable talk is about. In good working order they sound really fine and have tha tsuperb Altec midrange.
It's possible that your 890Cs would benefit from new caps in the crossover. It's cheap and relatively easy to do. You may hear a significant difference.
Another option is to substitute a better tweeter and move the crossover point lower. In another thread, the Econowave development project, we've been working on an add-on compression driver/waveguide conversion setup for cases like this. Unfortunately, none of the best waveguide options will fit in the 890 cabinet. Right now I'm running my Boleros with B&B DE10 drivers and ME10 waveguides stacked on top and connected in place of the tweeters. The sound is very nice. This combination could possibly be worked into the 890C cabinet if you don't mind cutting into it for the larger waveguide. This was one of the conversion options discussed on another site.
The best sound that I've had from my Boleros I got using the Econowave standard setup of Selenium D220Ti driver, Pyle PH612 waveguide and Econowave crossover. Below I'll link to a thread where I discuss and show installing these components in an Advent cabinet. For the Bolero the parts are all the same but the tweeter system has to sit on top of teh cabinet due to space. It sounds excellent and everyone who hears them is very impressed. The crossover region is moved down from 3 khz to 2 khz which keeps the woofer more in its best sounding range.
I think the parts cost for this tweeter conversion is in the $200 range at this time.
I think you can get great sound from the 890Cs but you may have to do some fooling around.

Econowave thread (very long): http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

Shorter Advent Econowave thread: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196614

Response of B&C DE10/ME10: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2957123&postcount=6771

B&C DE10:http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-600
B&C ME10:http://www.parts-express.com/pe/sho...4-618&FTR=me10&CFID=14724330&CFTOKEN=16354589

 

[ivan100000]

Thanks Bauhausler--

Maybe I will try replacing the caps on the crossovers. Is there a cap kit available, or do you perhaps know offhand what capacitors I'll require?

What you've so generously outlined sounds like a modification to subtley enhance the high-end performance. I think there's something patently wrong with my speakers though. I'm fairly lo-fi and not very discerning, but Altec wouldn't have sold even 3 pairs of these if they all sounded as bland as mine.

Hopefully it's a cap issue due to age & elements, especially considering that they spent their first 25 years in the house of an old chain-smoker in the middle of the hot California desert, which is where I bumped into them.

Ivan

 

[JohnVF]

Hi Ivan. I have both KLH Sixes and Altec 890C Boleros and, without being able to hear yours, I'm guess that they aren't running to their full potential. Of course, it could also be that they just aren't a speaker you like. But your description of them as bland and not dynamic doesn't sound like the 890Cs I have. They certainly present music differently than the KLH 6, but I'd actually describe them as more dynamic, not less. I really like both, but currently the Altecs are in one of my systems (I've only had them about two weeks) and the KLH Sixes are in storage.

At first I had them in a large room, and that didn't do them any favors. Then I moved them to a more enclosed area (I don't have rooms, I have an open loft...but the upstairs is sort of a smaller room) and they really came alive. I'm running them on about 18wpc from an Eico tube integrated amp and they sound absolutely wonderful. The bass really solidified in the smaller room.

I had them on a Fisher 202b integrated tube amp prior to that and they sounded ok, but they sound much better on the Eico, but room might be a bigger factor here. And I auditioned them on a large modern integrated NAD amp, and they sounded great there, too.

They sound much much better horizontal, too. Really...like a different speaker.

 

[Bauhausler]

I don't know what the cap values are for the 890C. You can find the caps by pulling a woofer or passive and looking at the crossover. The caps should be black and have the values painted in yellow lettering. If the caps are degraded tha twill depress the treble and may lead to dull sound. It made a difference with mine but not a huge one.
I've owned scores of pairs of speakers, including KLH sixes. The Boleros should stomp the sixes. The crossover cap change is a cheap fix that might make a difference. Loo kat the woofers and make sure the voice coils aren't rubbing, which will cause midrange distortion. It can happen.
The waveguide conversion would make a huge and non-subtle improvement over the stock horn tweeters, which are mediocre old technology. I have waveguides and compression drivers on my 890Bs and I wouldn't go back. I actually have 2 pairs so I can compare. The stock 890B sounds thinner in the treble and has worse dispersion
Also, make sure of the polarity. One of my pairs had the terminals wired backward on one unit. Reversed phase sounds bad on any speaker.

 

[Tom Brennan]

I believe the 406 used in the 890C is different that the one used in the B; bigger voicecoil as I recall. Maybe I'm wrong but I remember a conversation about it on this or some other forum.

 

[Bauhausler]

I believe the 406 used in the 890C is different that the one used in the B; bigger voicecoil as I recall. Maybe I'm wrong but I remember a conversation about it on this or some other forum.

I read that somewhere and repeated it here. I have 406Zs here and have had 406-8Y in teh past. They have different dust caps but I didn't measure the VCs. I'd really like someone to carefully measure my 406Zs and publish a full set of T/S parameters for them. The information is commonly asked for and doesn't appear to have been published. I have WT3 and can do basic measurements but not accurate VAS and moving mass, which are necessary.

 

[KFCrosby]

Just stumbled on this thread and I have a question. My dad has a set of 890A's with the 3000 series tweeter. I noticed they sounded a bit dull the other night while I was over there and confirmed noting coming out of the tweets. I have not had a chance to crack em open to test to see if it is the crossover or the horn that has given up (my thoughts are the stock x-overs), but the question is, if it is the horn, what is a good replacement. I understand the 3000's are quite rare now.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Goodwill_HiFi]

...... if it is the horn, what is a good replacement. I understand the 3000's are quite rare now.

Get new diaphragms installed my Micro-Mike. I don't have the contact info handy, but searching the forum, or going to the Unofficial Altec page should do it.

 

[Russellc]

I had them out of phase. The terminal strips are mirror imaged. I hooked them up in the dark and connected the polarity by cabinet orientation rather than by the barely visible terminal markings. I now have plenty of bass. I can't tell you how many times I've done that.

Been there done that!

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Just stumbled on this thread and I have a question. My dad has a set of 890A's with the 3000 series tweeter. I noticed they sounded a bit dull the other night while I was over there and confirmed noting coming out of the tweets. I have not had a chance to crack em open to test to see if it is the crossover or the horn that has given up (my thoughts are the stock x-overs), but the question is, if it is the horn, what is a good replacement. I understand the 3000's are quite rare now.

Thanks

Kevin

That is correct, very rare.

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Nice Altec grab:thmbsp:. I have the version of these w/ the cone tweeter and the CTS drivers and passives, Altec model 886A.

Try turning the speaker over w/ the horn on top. This is how they are meant to be placed.

Enjoy

That's not what you E'waved is it? I thought it was some Altec box or the other?

Russellc