Brad Muller
Super Member
Those are pretty!!!!:yes:
Altecs, which would you choose, and why?
- Thread starter Ken Boyd
- Start date
WaynerN
Addicted Member
My friend has a pair of Santiagos that I restored 2 summers ago. We think they are from about 1968. These speakers were pieced together from other wrecks. But we believe we have matched the correct HF driver, LF driver, cross-over and EQ circuit required for this model. Cabinets are 9 out of 10. Here is a pic I borrowed off the net to at least let everyone know what they look like:
The 2 important factors is which HF cross-over point was used with the HF driver. Some were at 500hz. We decided that the correct cross-over was at 800hz. We also knew our woofer needed the EQ circuit to smooth out some hills and valleys in the frequency response.
The results are spectacular. You can actually hear the reeds of a sax vibrating in well recorded CDs. Cymbal crash is near real, as are male and female vocals.
Make no mistake about this, however. You need a BF'n room to make these things sing, or the music is going to sound compressed.
Wayner
The 2 important factors is which HF cross-over point was used with the HF driver. Some were at 500hz. We decided that the correct cross-over was at 800hz. We also knew our woofer needed the EQ circuit to smooth out some hills and valleys in the frequency response.
The results are spectacular. You can actually hear the reeds of a sax vibrating in well recorded CDs. Cymbal crash is near real, as are male and female vocals.
Make no mistake about this, however. You need a BF'n room to make these things sing, or the music is going to sound compressed.
Wayner
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
Santiagos are sleepers - Altec fanboys don't like 'em because of their slightly lower sensitivity. I like my pair just fine...
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
First let's note that the 878 Santiago's pictured above are late "B" models(circa 1974-75) with the 411 woofer, most were earlier "A" models and had the 413.
However, the 413 does seem to have an unjustified stigma, i really think it's a case of "all american redneck syndrome" in the sense that the redneck hates what he fears, and fears what he does not understand. I didn't understand the 413 at first. My apologies to MRH if my lack of understanding added to that stigma at some point in our history.
The 413 woofer really is an odd duck among the typical Altec woofers. But odd doesn't always mean "bad". It's one of the only Altec cone speakers that uses added mass in it's moving assembly, and it's the only non-MI speaker with a ferrite motor on an old style frame, pretty different from any of it's predecessors. Human nature likes to resist change. I think it's too quickly and easily overlooked that they were optimized for their specific application, and their use was limited to that application.
I like my 9846's and 9849's plenty, both the same sensitivity as the 878 Santiago. 9846 is of course similar to the 878 Santiago being a sealed system but with a lower XO and larger horn, while the 9849 is classic Altec reflex with the long lived 414 twelve inch woofer, and quite different from the sealed systems. I expect i'd like Santiago's too. I've just never had the opportunity to spend time with them in my own listening space.
Just my .02 .............
That might not be an entirely fair statement. Maybe if we said "hornboys" it'd be a bit more accurate. :scratch2:
However, the 413 does seem to have an unjustified stigma, i really think it's a case of "all american redneck syndrome" in the sense that the redneck hates what he fears, and fears what he does not understand. I didn't understand the 413 at first. My apologies to MRH if my lack of understanding added to that stigma at some point in our history.
The 413 woofer really is an odd duck among the typical Altec woofers. But odd doesn't always mean "bad". It's one of the only Altec cone speakers that uses added mass in it's moving assembly, and it's the only non-MI speaker with a ferrite motor on an old style frame, pretty different from any of it's predecessors. Human nature likes to resist change. I think it's too quickly and easily overlooked that they were optimized for their specific application, and their use was limited to that application.
I like my 9846's and 9849's plenty, both the same sensitivity as the 878 Santiago. 9846 is of course similar to the 878 Santiago being a sealed system but with a lower XO and larger horn, while the 9849 is classic Altec reflex with the long lived 414 twelve inch woofer, and quite different from the sealed systems. I expect i'd like Santiago's too. I've just never had the opportunity to spend time with them in my own listening space.
Just my .02 .............
cornwallguy
Active Member
Most likely the model 19 is the best choice, since you do not want the VOT industrial cabinets.
The 19 retains the midrange of the bigger commercial systems, that made Altec famous.
The 19 retains the midrange of the bigger commercial systems, that made Altec famous.
604s for smaller rooms. 19s for bigger rooms.
Or knowing you Ken, get both...
Or knowing you Ken, get both...
cradeldorf
Mr. Lucky
I'll second that, most were originally built to fill venue's but when Altec realized the Home market was a virtual gold mine they picked up the ball and ran with it. And I'm so glad they did. Love my 604's!!!
cradeldorf
Mr. Lucky
I see that, Good times, Good times.
Hi Bowtie,
How was this "added mass" actually achieved on the 413 woofer ?
Thanks <>
Russellc
Addicted Member
My pick would be between A-7 and M 19. I have always loved the A-7, but it is larger and doesnt have the bass extension of the M 19. The M 19 is slightly smaller, most consider better looking choice.
Favorite "Altec" was covered in an article from Sound Practices, called the "Exemplar". Not a real Altec from their factory, but the drivers sure were. I dont think it ever came out commercially, but was the result of getting all that could be had from the A-7, then redesigning the cab. I will have to look up the article to see who made this beast. Like the A-7 it had horns on both the top and bottom, four ports out the rear. Absolutely beautiful!
Russellc
Favorite "Altec" was covered in an article from Sound Practices, called the "Exemplar". Not a real Altec from their factory, but the drivers sure were. I dont think it ever came out commercially, but was the result of getting all that could be had from the A-7, then redesigning the cab. I will have to look up the article to see who made this beast. Like the A-7 it had horns on both the top and bottom, four ports out the rear. Absolutely beautiful!
Russellc
Wow - those are really pretty!
Nice restoration job!
Nice restoration job!
My friend has a pair of Santiagos that I restored 2 summers ago. We think they are from about 1968. These speakers were pieced together from other wrecks. But we believe we have matched the correct HF driver, LF driver, cross-over and EQ circuit required for this model. Cabinets are 9 out of 10. Here is a pic I borrowed off the net to at least let everyone know what they look like:
The 2 important factors is which HF cross-over point was used with the HF driver. Some were at 500hz. We decided that the correct cross-over was at 800hz. We also knew our woofer needed the EQ circuit to smooth out some hills and valleys in the frequency response.
The results are spectacular. You can actually hear the reeds of a sax vibrating in well recorded CDs. Cymbal crash is near real, as are male and female vocals.
Make no mistake about this, however. You need a BF'n room to make these things sing, or the music is going to sound compressed.
Wayner
I see that you mentioned Valencia’s as a possibility. I don’t know if you’re aware, but there were other cabinet variations for home using those same components.
Consider: Granada, Flamenco (which I use and love), Milano, Santiago, or what I consider the Holy Grail, The Barcelona (which uses a larger horn).
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1971-home/page14.jpg
Consider: Granada, Flamenco (which I use and love), Milano, Santiago, or what I consider the Holy Grail, The Barcelona (which uses a larger horn).
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1971-home/page14.jpg
Last edited:
bfishn
loose cannon
Hi Bowtie,
How was this "added mass" actually achieved on the 413 woofer ?
Thanks <>
Hi Earl,
Seems Bowtie missed your Q, so I'll pitch in.
413s had an incredibly thick (~1/8") painted aluminum dustcap in addition to the heavy cone that was made much like the 411. The only other use of those heavy dustcaps I've seen are on a pair of 417s I've got in some 123x wedge monitors (unpainted in that app). Charles Clark has also come across them on special-duty 417s.
Morden2004
Relaxin'
I love my model 14's and small is a relative thing :scratch2: as these baby's will break windows.
Paul
Paul
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Howdy Earl! Not sure how i missed your post until now.Hi Bowtie,
How was this "added mass" actually achieved on the 413 woofer ?
Thanks <>
The 413 has an aluminum dustcap, it's between 1/8 and 3/16 inch thick, and anodized or painted black. That's the additional mass, if i had to guess i'd say in the 7 to 10 gram range. I've not been able to dissect one personally. It'd be nice to know the details like the cone and damper used along with the weight of the dustcap.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Good to see you here B! I guess we happened along this old thread at the same time.
Those 417's......................... were they tweaked for bass guitar apps do you suppose?
Curious about the 417 motor structure, particularly gap depth, and if it's possible to load one into a sort of "magnum" version of the 414.
bfishn
loose cannon
Howdy!
My guess (for the wedge monitors) was just for wider BW, but that would include a bass in some of the smaller bands that used them for mains. I've never swept them, but did run a box calc on the cab once. It appears to be tuned lower than the software indicated for std 417 specs in that volume,
I've reconed a few 417s (NOS kits) but never bothered to measure anything. I know there's no "chamfered" plate for "MI distortion" like I've seen suggested. AFAIK they're exactly the same as the corresponding 414 versions save the paint and moving assy.
Putting a 414 kit with a heavy cap in a 417 sounds like a decent idea, but IMO 417s are far too good an MI speaker to alter... but then I feel the same about 418s, so whadda I know ...
Last edited:
phil-g
Active Member
this is a great thread ken. i've learned a lot from it. thanks everyone. from what i'm reading the A7s may be what i want to end up with myself. i'm kinda in the more industrial style. i wouldn't care if it came with chainlink fence grills. i don't care what it looks like. as long as the end result is clear lifelike sound with a low end you can believe.