Alternating Between Solid State Amp & Tube Amp

[Mahalo]

I was undecided whether to post the following question in the Mac forum or the Solid State & Tube forums, but decided on the Mac forum because I have Mac equipment. However, please feel free to provide an opinion as to whether I might get more traction in the Solid State & Tube forums on this question.

I am interested in obtaining input from members that either had been running a tube amp in their 2-channel system but then decided to also add a solid state amp—or vice versa—to their system. However, the intent was to keep both amps in the system and alternate between amp types, for whatever reason.

What I would appreciate a response on, for those interested in responding, is a response to any of the following. Whether you initially had a tube amp or SS amp in your system, and then decided to add what you did not have in your system, i.e., had a tube amp and decided to add and then alternate between a SS amp—or vice versa.

• Would you recommend that I place this thread in the Solid State & Tube forums to generate more traction?

• What were your original expectations/goals for adding the complementary amp?

• After adding the complementary amp, what were the results relative to your expectations?

Thank you.

 

[Pio1980]

This has been discussed here in the Mac forum, for reasons from SQ to summer heat.

 

[SaturationPt]

Okay, I’ll post a long one.

I transitioned from tubes to SS back in the ‘70s, never felt that I’d ever touch a tube again. SS was newer, had more power, was better looking (all my opinion at the time), and was the future.

I’ve had many SS receivers, separates, and at one point packed away my last 2-channel to only maintain a HT system. After my son became interested in my father’s old stereo, I too became interested in pulling old equpment from my storage room and the hobby began again.

A few(?) years ago I decided to add a tube amp to my systems, just something different, it was a Yaqin (Chinese), needed many (well documented) mods to make it sound decent (sounded like ass compared to my vintage SS), I lost interest and sold it. The stimulus for this experiment was my son’s ST-70 & Pas2 “superpas” (modified by Frank decades ago), which did sound quite lovely and I felt it added a certain listenable quality to some music.

Later the MC240 came into my posession, then other McIntosh and SOB tube amps, as well as many SS pieces that I have carefully selected and restored.

I feel that it is hard to beat the power that SS gear has, for the money. If you have unlimited funds and nobody else in your household who will ask how much it costs, ... there are new tube amplifiers, preamps, etc. that can be had and posess enough power for pretty much any speaker system and space, so in my house I can (without guilt) buy some pretty powerful new & vintage SS gear, but new top-of-the-line multi-hundred watt tubes are pretty hard to justify.

Anyway, that’s probably the difference to me. Tubes have their own sound (and not just the tube gear, even the tubes selected which is another discussion and why I ended up with thousands of tubes). I buy different gear for the different sound, new high-power SS gear has dynamics and clarity at high SPLs on hungry speakers that I haven’t been able to experience on tubes, where tubes have their own sound that I haven’t been able to produce at low SPLs and efficient speakers with modern SS gear.

The problem for me becomes space, and weight. I don’t have space near the speakers and source for more than a couple of amplifiers so I must move this heavy gear around to rotate things through. I’m considering an AV cart to move things and to use as a transfer cart, ...

The other problem that I (personally) have with tube gear is that the tubes have a finite life and really hard to find excellent true NOS matching output tubes so once I do, ... I use their hours sparingly. A little OCD tendency there so you might not suffer that same tendency but I do.

Also, there’s not much point (IMO) in comparing vintage gear until it has been COMPLETELY AND PROPERLY restored. This takes time and money so until that occurs, it’s just a collection. With tube gear this also can include finding the tubes that sound best, and I’ve found that vintage Mc gear sounds best with vintage tubes, doing some “rolling” takes an investment in tubes.

So the short answer is yes, I expect that I will always have tube and SS. Sometimes tube amp and SS preamp, sometimes all SS, etc. etc. but I like having them both as they have their own personality. It doesn’t matter which is more pure (used to) to me anymore, music makes me smile, sometimes cry a little, takes me to memories or just a relaxing place and it doesn’t matter why a particular piece or pairing does that. I also love the look of my (pictured) vintage MC240 more than my modern tube gear or any SS gear, so looking at it is worth the expense to me (hasn’t been plugged in probably since February or March?).

My expectation was a new sound, a new experience, and an expanded collection. I also hoped that there would be friends and family who would share this hobby.

I have experienced many new sounds, have bought, restored, and sometimes sold many pieces that interest me and I have retained a few of my favorites. Regarding the sharing the hobby / experience? My son has his collection, I have mine, we share the interest a little but in different styles (his main interest is in modern monitor-level and digital). My wife enjoys listening to it, but has little interest in the particular types, would be just as happy with one new system as multiple types and generations. None of my neighbors are fans, my few friends who are at all involved live a distance away and we simply communicate electronically and meet rarely so it’s a hobby that is pretty much me on my bench or me in my listening room with my wife.

What is your system and what do you like / dislike about it?

 

[RUMBLER5467]

I too have a blend of a C11 tube preamp and a MC2105 SS power amp. Would love to get a MC240 or MC275 tube amp to run a more efficient set of horns. I run the MC2105 into a pair of Spendor SP1 2way large monitors which although somewhat not so efficient ( 89 I think). They dont need a whole lot of current. That said, having run tube and SS they prefer the SS power. So it really depends on speakers and SPL your after....

Jeff

 

[TSmith8605]

. . .What I would appreciate a response on, for those interested in responding, is a response to any of the following. Whether you initially had a tube amp or SS amp in your system, and then decided to add what you did not have in your system, i.e., had a tube amp and decided to add and then alternate between a SS amp—or vice versa. . .

Been swapping things around for almost 50 years, so which came first does not matter much - but it was SS because of budget constraints.

. . .

• Would you recommend that I place this thread in the Solid State & Tube forums to generate more traction?. . .

No opinion.

. . .

• What were your original expectations/goals for adding the complementary amp?. . .

I have added complementary amps from time to time for a couple of reasons:

- to evaluate and compare to my existing amp(s) which includes to learn, to have fun and to make purchase decisions. The complementary amp could have been my own, a friends or a dealer demo.

- to conserve expensive tubes: i.e. use the tube amp for critical listening / music and use a cheaper SS amp for background / TV.

. . .

• After adding the complementary amp, what were the results relative to your expectations?. . .

The process worked as hoped. If you want to know the results of my comparison evaluations, there are too many to list (or even remember) here. I could summarize that for the last 10 years or so, I have settled in on McIntosh amplifiers (tube or SS) and since I now consider Mc SS to be as good or better than any tube sound (or on par with Mc tube sound) that I've heard, I am losing interested in tube amps just because you have to deal with the tubes.

My preference could change again. I heard some fantastic-sounding tube amplifiers at the recent Rocky Mountain Audio Fest but judging sound quality at a show is difficult and these amps appeared to well beyond my budget.


Why do you ask these questions? Are you planning to add a second amp? If so why and specifically what amps (and other gear) will be envolved?

 

[c_dk]

The quality and availability of tubes throughout the 80s and 90s solidified many of us to put tube units and the back back burner.

While the old Soviet block still produces tubes I do wonder if their goals are to serve the artisan guitar market......different flavors of distortion as a artistic tool, or the audiophile market of low distortion and tight tolerances.

So for me the tube designs are a historical collector perspective. For everyday use not a option.

I have noticed you have posted this at a number of sites, what are you trying to accomplish?

I come from decades in the business, it is very possible, have seen it too often, that a over emphasis in regaling in the hardware can suck the fun, the life out of the music experience.

 

[Mahalo]

SaturationPt


Thank you so much for you answer. It was helpful and it saved me some time. It saved me some time because one of my morning thoughts was whether or not I should edit my post. I was wondering this because I realized that my target market for this post is the “tinkerers.” The tinkerers will take the time to read and digest the original post and note that it has 2 components. The first is an “expectation” component, i.e., what were your expectations when you considered or made the change. The second is a “results” component, i.e., what were the results? Were your expectations met? Were there unintended results?


And so, the “tinkerer” will take the time to provide your type of response. This is one of the reasons that I posted in Audio Karma because, IMHO, a portion of the membership favors vintage equipment, and as you noted in your reply “vintage” requires “tinkering.” So, you’ve saved me time because you are the target market for my post.


And, your reply was not too long for me. As an example, in terms of my OP, in your 2nd paragraph you answer the 1st question by stating your expectations was that SS was new, had more power, was better looking and it was the future. Your response to the 2nd question is implied because you stuck with SS all the way to assembling a HT system.


In your 4th paragraph you answer the 1st question by stating that your expectations was to experiment and experience something different. And then you answer the 2nd question by stating that the results were that the Yaquin required much work to be listenable and even thought the sound had improved, it did not meet your expectations of something different enough to keep it.


By the way, in your 5th paragraph, what are “SOB tube amps, ...”

 

[Mahalo]

RUMBLER5467

Thank you for you answer. So, it sounds like in terms of the 1st question related to expectations, you have alternated between tube and SS, because your Spendors do “not need a whole lot of current.” And, in terms of the 2nd question related to results, the results were that you prefer the sonics with the SS power.

 

[62caddy]

In my own instant A/B listening comparisons between an MC2505 and an MC240 or MC2505 and a pair of MC30s, I was unable to distinguish one from the other on music. Tried with a number of friends whose ears are much younger than mine, one an engineer with a major TV network the results were the same. We then tried a variety of test tones, still nothing. Finally decided to try interstation FM static (a/k/a "white noise") with bass and treble added to accentuate any sonic changes. Then slight differences could just be heard but e x t r e m e l y slight. With flat tone settings, the difference became that much harder to hear which was difficult enough as it was.

It was difficult to characterize one hiss from the other as one being more "pleasant" than the other, after all how often does one listen to hiss anyway? Even if one was, say, brighter than the other, how would know which amplifier is resolving the signal better or worse than the other? In any event. the point was to do whatever possible to highlight some audible difference between the amplifiers. But for music, any differences were simply impossible to discern.

Results were the same whether the preamplifier was tube or SS and whether the speakers were high sensitivity horns or acoustic suspension of moderate sensitivity. All four combinations were tried and it made no difference.

My observations and experiences for whatever they might be worth. As always, YMMV.

 

[SaturationPt]

<<snip>> By the way, in your 5th paragraph, what are “SOB tube amps, ...”

Some Other Brand.

 

[SaturationPt]

In my own instant A/B listening comparisons between an MC2505 and an MC240 or MC2505 and a pair of MC30s, I was unable to distinguish one from the other on music. <<snip>>

I no longer have my 2505, but comparing my 2105 to the 240 I preferred the 2105 (which it is said is sonically identical to the 2505). I have not compared them since upgrading my MC240 from new-issue to Telefunken/GE/RCA NOS tubes, but the 240 has improved with those changes. The biggest difference that I *believe* I hear is more MF and HF detail in the 2105.

One thing that I do feel strongly about however is that I will always keep a good high-quality high-power amplifier around (which currently is SS) because I want to be able to buy and experience any speakers that pique my interest, even if they're very power-hungry. Neither the MC240 nor the MC2105 will fit that bill, the MC2105 is a maybe, ... MC452 a yes.

 

[Mahalo]

Saturation Pt--2

Sorry, forgot to answer your question related to what my system is and what I like / dislike about it. I have 3 systems: 1) a 2-channel, tube-based system, 2) a multi-channel, solid state based system, and, 3) a desktop, computer based system. For the sake of brevity, the most topic appropriate system for this thread is item 1.


BTW. It was not my intent to be so detailed in the following system description, but as I got into it, I realized it provided me opportunity to recap where my system is moving forward. OTOH, it reminded me of why I shy away from putting my system details in the signature lines of the various forums.


Item 1- 2 channel, tube based system

Amplification: McIntosh MC275 MkIV amp; McIntosh C2200 preamp; EAR 834p phone stage, with Level II mods by Singerman.

Components -- Analog: Rega P3-24 turntable, Dynavector 10X5 moving coil cartridge; Sansui FR-D25 turntable, Denon DL-160 moving magnet cartridge; Yamaha KX-W582 dual cassette deck.

Components -- Digital: Cayin CD-50T tube-based CD player; Modwright tube-modded, Pioneer UDP-LX500 CD/SACD/DVD-Audio/Dts player.

Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand floor standers and JL Audio Fathom f112 subwoofer

Accessories – Power Cables: Nordost Red Dawn Lief and OEM

Accessories – Interconnects: AudioQuest, Dynex, McIntosh, Rega, and OEM

Accessories – Speaker Cables: Monster, OEM and off-brand

Accessories – Cabinets: BDI, Mirage 8222; LPBIN lp storage, LPBIN2 and off-brand

Accessories – Tubes: Svetlana, Winged C SED; Mullard, McIntosh, JJ Electronics and Electro Harmonix

Accessories – Misc.: VPI 16.5 record cleaner, AudioQuest record brush; TM-8 and Musical Surroundings Record Time cleaning solutions, Ayre myrtle blocks and Ayre CD system enhancement Disc v 1.2 and Monoprice and Panasonic headphones.

Item 2- What I Like

I Like: The sonic signature and resulting musical experience, the quality, the aesthetics, the sense of accomplishment and an appreciation for the years spent dedicated to the journey that has led me to Item 1, an appreciation for the industry professionals and their efforts to design and manufacture the components.


Item 2- What I Don’t Like

I Don’t Like: The heat. The mixture of days when the system sounds good and takes me to a good place mixed with the days when the system doesn’t sound so good and I start thinking that something is wrong with it. There is much less sonic variance with my solid state based systems. Knowing that portions of the sonic qualities I enjoy are tube dependent and that the supply of certain tube types is finite.

 

[RUMBLER5467]

RUMBLER5467

Thank you for you answer. So, it sounds like in terms of the 1st question related to expectations, you have alternated between tube and SS, because your Spendors do “not need a whole lot of current.” And, in terms of the 2nd question related to results, the results were that you prefer the sonics with the SS power.

Yes, with the current speaker configuration I do prefer the SS. Although further testing with a higher powered tube amp may yield results as good. What I have yet to determine is whether it is the higher power of the solid state amp giving the improved performance over the 40w per channel tube amp that was used prior to the SS.

Jeff

 

[Mahalo]

TSmith8605/Terry

See my response to SaturationPt/Jeff regarding the target market for my post. In your case I would also add that I was hoping to get some responses from methodical people such as yourself. Thank you for your response.


In response to your query regarding the reason for my post. I typically make one significant addition/change to my system per year. I call it my “Xmas/Birthday” gift to myself. As part of that I usually have a wish list / short list of items or changes that I am considering. The benefit is that when an opportunity comes my way I am ready to consider it. So, in this case I am considering an opportunity to add a solid state amp to the system I summarized for Saturation Pt/Jeff. Although after completing that exercise I must admit that I did scratch my head wondering, “Do I really need anything else?”

 

[Mahalo]

62 Caddy

That was interesting. Thank you.

 

[SaturationPt]

My feeling is that if you can justify a new MC462 or newish MC452 it will have all of the good sounds of the MC275 with enough reserve and dynamics to make you question tubes. I find myself home on a Friday, decide to swap in a tube amp, love the sound for a couple of weeks and then get the itch to change again. No reason really.

I love tubes, but can hear the clock ticking when they run, don't like turning them on for short sessions, they take more space than they should, ... many practical reasons that seem to rule them out. I'm building an hour-meter into a switch box so that I can log tube hours, ... no such concerns with SS gear.

But they look so good, sound even better, they are art and I don't care that they're perhaps not as practical. I spent most of my career as an Engineer being practical and logical, music doesn't have to be.

I can own both, so I do. If I had to have only one system, probably McIntosh solid state but I'm happy to be able to have both.

 

[TSmith8605]

My feeling is that if you can justify a new MC462 or newish MC452 it will have all of the good sounds of the MC275 with enough reserve and dynamics to make you question tubes. . .

Having just transitioned from an MC275IV to an MC452, I would have to agree with this. Caveat: my speakers are completely different from OP's and so I cannot predict how the amplifier change would affect the OP's system. The VA speakers appear to be more sensitive than mine so the extra power may be less important.

 

[Pio1980]

Power delivery into a dynamic loading is theoretically different for solid state vs tubes, depending on specific examples. A solid state amp that can safely double or triple into lower 'Z' ranges should sound different from one that can't.

 

[Mahalo]

TSmith8605/Terry

I just thought of you because we are watching the ‘9er / Green Bay game. And the ‘9ers just did that boneheaded penalty when the Packers were like 3rd and 35. Thought of you because your signature states Sunnyvale. I used to live in Nor Cal—Palo Alto, Mountain View, Redwood City, San Francisco (The City—as I am sure you are aware that that’s what SF people prefer SF be called—not me of course and Auburn. As a side note I wish that I lived in Auburn at the same time as Nelson Pass and Pass Laboratories. I guarantee you I would have been standing on his doorstep until he let me in.


And I still have family up there: My nephew is in San Jose, recently relocated from Walnut Creek. My niece is in Napa. And my brother (deceased) was in Sacramento – where his widow still lives. A few years ago a company was recruiting me that would have involved me moving back up north. I would have probably relocated to Sac. But things did not work out.


Are you watching the ‘9er game tonight?

 

[TSmith8605]

Thanks for ^^^^^

It was fun to watch the Niners during their dynasty days in the '80s but I don't watch much football these days. After years of crap, the Niners are 10 and 1 this season. Don't know where that came from but it's kinda cool. Sorta makes up for the fall of the GS Warriors.

Apropos to audio evaluation, I am a big fan of the SF Symphony Orchestra (up in, yes, The City) and attend frequently because they put on a lot of great concerts for much of the year (not a lot pops stuff) for reasonable prices for good seats (especially when compared to some audio component costs). I go because I like the music (a lot) but it also gives me insight into "the absolute sound" - meaning live un-amplified music serving as a reference for how an audio system should sound. No system I've ever heard or owned can do it.

I can go to hear MTT conduct, say, a Mahler Symphony at Davies hall from like row 10 and less than two hours later be plunked down in my listening seat listing to my MCD500 playing a Grammy winning SACD recording of MTT conducting a Mahler Symphony recorded at Davies hall. Gives some real insight into how things should sound.