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Am I wrong for thinking like this?

osd1

osd1

Member
Banned
Hey now.

I was wondering, is it wrong of me to think that getting to the extreme #hz is useless?

For example, I'm looking into subs right now and when people say "hey Dave, how low are you trying to go" I'll say "30hz sounds about right."

Unless your spending thousands of dollars or are a ****ing genius when it comes to enclosure design it just isn't happening.

Now I know there are speakers from the 80s that do get super low and sound good doing it. But the vast majority just don't.

So my question is, when looking for a sub or speakers in general THAT SOUND
GOOD AND IS MUSICAL I look at what I listen to and say "ok 95% of what I listen to doesn't go below 35hz so I'm gonna shoot for 30hz. why shoot for 20hz and below when it is not only a crusade to truly get, but not necessary"

Am I wrong? Am I being stupid and close-minded thinking what I do?
 
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Well the heart wants what the heart wants.......as has been said. In your case wanting & getting a 20hz sub is possible, if you have enough money and probably space. A sub can electronically realize 20 hz- but are costly. Be careful though- when they say 20hz- is that at 15db down opr what- find HONEST specs.

Consider a majority of music is seldom mixed below 45 hz, if I got 35hz I would be well pleased and realistic. Again be ware of the "3db down" point HSU subs are considered to be very musical, low/ honest 3db down points and reliable. Velodyne USED to be, however I tend more often than not find them to fail shortly after their warrenty due date. They typically sound good but reliability is a real concern for me. Forget repair, they only want to sell new gear.

Their are plenty more true 35hz subs out there- more folks will chime in and offer their experience and other valid points. I am but a small voice in the wilderness of subs.....
DC
 
My Genesis III pluses are speced to 28hz, while they go real low and sound good ding it I find this hard to believe too. I did check the internet for specs after some music and movies led me to believe these were getting lower than most my speakers and was surprised by the 28hz spec.

http://www.humanspeakers.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?page=genesis/gen3.txt

If this is true a cab with the same volume and a little inexpensive 8" driver and 10" passive would get you there.

- As is I don't need a sub at all with these speakers.
 
Lots of vintage speakers can go mid 20's if you have the room for them, both in the size of the cabinets themselves and the size of your room. Polk Audio made a bunch of models for example. Some vintage subs do too. I bought my M&K 75's cheap and they go deeeep.
For me it makes all the difference to have the lowest octave, it provides the foundation for everything else!
 
osd1 said:
Hey now.

I was wondering, is it wrong of me to think that getting to the extreme #hz is useless?

For example, I'm looking into subs right now and when people say "hey Dave, how low are you trying to go" I'll say "30hz sounds about right."

Unless your spending thousands of dollars or are a ****ing genius when it comes to enclosure design it just isn't happening.

Now I know there are speakers from the 80s that do get super low and sound good doing it. But the vast majority just don't.

So my question is, when looking for a sub or speakers in general THAT SOUND
GOOD AND IS MUSICAL I look at what I listen to and say "ok 95% of what I listen to doesn't go below 35hz so I'm gonna shoot for 30hz. why shoot for 20hz and below when it is not only a crusade to truly get, but not necessary"

Am I wrong? Am I being stupid and close-minded thinking what I do?
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For "music" I pretty much agree. I have listened to some pipe organ passages that were astonishingly cool, really cool. But overall, unless a heavy dose of "electronic" music is present, or overemphasis of bass in the recording, or instruments like pipe organs are used or emphasized, what really is the point. Most people, on average, can't "hear" below around 50hz to begin with. What occurs below this is typically felt, if even present in the recording. And "chest pounding" music, to me, seems to occur above 50hz (which I've confirmed with my AudioSource EQ-One).

Several of my speakers operate comfortably below 60hz, a couple easily below 50hz and one or two pair at or below 30hz. The latter running 15" woofers, and no none are subs.

However, when it comes to HT, that's a whole different puppy all together. I'm looking at running 2-3 subs strategically placed for full affect. Why? Because there have been sufficient posts supporting multiple subs for HT use. Some even like music with them, but I'm thinking it really depends on type of music and not just music in general do to few selections running low enough to take advantage of subs in the first place.
 
Nothing wrong with it at all. Most music, like others have mentioned, don't really go anywhere below 35-30hz so it's more a question of if you want the ability to or not. It's not necessary by any means unless you listen to lots of classical or organ music, or say dubstep or anything with very low bass tones. It's nice to have that extra bit of range, but you certainly aren't diminishing your bass by not having it. Most of the bass you hear is in the 50-100hz range. With that said, personally one of the reasons I like my IMF's is the extended low bass output. With the right music you can feel it and I wouldn't have it any other way - so if you're like me, it's worth pursuing.
 
So in other words copa1934 try an eq before subs because that be all I need to boost?
 
Two things to keep in mind:

1. Low C on a pipe organ is 32.6 Hz, and that's pretty dang low.

2. It takes a rather large room to develop a wave that big. Remember, the lower the Hz, the longer the wave. In a smaller room all you're going to hear is a multiple of the original frequency anyway.

So the question is, do you want more bass, or better bass?:yes:
 
1tumbleweed said:
Two things to keep in mind:

1. Low C on a pipe organ is 32.6 Hz, and that's pretty dang low.

2. It takes a rather large room to develop a wave that big. Remember, the lower the Hz, the longer the wave. In a smaller room all you're going to hear is a multiple of the original frequency anyway.

So the question is, do you want more bass, or better bass?:yes:
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More. I have very accurate bass, when I listen to metal and the double bass drum is going it is weak.
 
1tumbleweed said:
2. It takes a rather large room to develop a wave that big. Remember, the lower the Hz, the longer the wave. In a smaller room all you're going to hear is a multiple of the original frequency anyway
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No. The actual tone will still sound in a small room. There is no mechanism for any such frequency conversion.

Actually, below the lowest mode, a room will have relatively flat response until room gain begins to raise the levels at about 12 dB/octave. Indeed, with a sealed sub, which rolls off below system resonance at 12 dB/octave, the room gain may provide compensation that yields overall all flat response to a lower frequency.

Back to the OP, no, you are not wrong to think that. And, if you can get a sealed sub that gets close to 30 Hz corner frequency in test conditions, you may well have excellent in-room response down to 20 Hz, depending on room size.

I have a sealed sub in my office that probably has a corner frequency just above 45 Hz, but the in-room response is still satisfying down to about 30 Hz. Compared to not having a sub, it's a night and day difference. It always sounds good, but sometimes it is also quite terrifying.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I played with speakers that dug down deep and learned a lesson. Air duct rattling becomes a problem even at low listening levels.
 
canuckaudiog said:
Nothing wrong with it at all. Most music, like others have mentioned, don't really go anywhere below 35-30hz...
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I think this is the biggest roadblock. Why build a car that tops out at 300 mph, if there are no roads to drive it on? Just the coolness factor, I guess, but certainly not practical.
 
Rap/Hip-hop music was the only stuff I listened to that dug down that deep. It's noteworthy that those low notes were created by synthesizers. I don't recall listening to any other music that got through my subwoofer bandpass to where it made a day/night difference in the listening experience. Sure I could hear a difference, but the difference wasn't day/night except with synthesized recordings.
 
For years, I've been listening to music from a pair of DIY versions of the BBC LS3/5a. They barely go lower than 100Hz and in a small room, nearfield, they sound fine but in an average living room they sound thin and lacking.

I now have a pair of KEF 105s that may not go as low as 20-25Hz but they do sound all much better. In a medium-large living room that is. Because in a small room they excite all the room modes making the sound boomy.

So, your notion is right but be careful what you are asking. You may get it and it may not fit what you have.

BTW, all things being equal, doubling the low frequency extension requires an excessive amount of enclosure size, magnet strength, woofer size, amplifier power or a combination of all four elements.

There are actively assisted designs (servo assisted as named) that apparently perform well. But you need to be careful what they have been designed for. Some are aimed for reproducing the lowest octave of piano and organ - and do that well - and others aim to reproduce realistic explosions and earth rattling - and also do that well. What doesn't seem to work well is to switch their applications.
 
I do listen to some synthesized music, a good portion of listening material is industrial/ebm.

I hope to be able to run my super 10 drivers free air and have the subs do the rest. I've run my speakers in 3 different enclosures and my favorite was a 5.6 cuft enclosure but too big for my fiancee. I loved the way the drivers sounded free air so I'm hoping with subs they get the low end response with the subs.

I listen to classical, hardcore, thrash and death metal, oi, industrial/ebm, goth rock, classic rock, gregorian chant, some jazz and blues rockabilly, Tom waits (whatever his genre is), outlaw country, blue grass and recently fell in love with fiddle music.

I can go from slayer to Roy Orbison, to dying fetus to the ronettes to gorecki to nine inch nails to Hank Williams to assemblage 23 to the misfits to Mozart to Jimmy Martin to Hank 3 to Imelda may to Amy winehouse to the doors to cronos quartet to straight up roman catholic gregorian chant

So yeah....we are talking more than just 3 styles of music here
 
For synthesized music then hell yeah, experiment with a speaker that digs down. It's a worthwhile experience.
 
osd1 said:
I do listen to some synthesized music, a good portion of listening material is industrial/ebm.

I hope to be able to run my super 10 drivers free air and have the subs do the rest. I've run my speakers in 3 different enclosures and my favorite was a 5.6 cuft enclosure but too big for my fiancee. I loved the way the drivers sounded free air so I'm hoping with subs they get the low end response with the subs.

I listen to classical, hardcore, thrash and death metal, oi, industrial/ebm, goth rock, classic rock, gregorian chant, some jazz and blues rockabilly, Tom waits (whatever his genre is), outlaw country, blue grass and recently fell in love with fiddle music.

I can go from slayer to Roy Orbison, to dying fetus to the ronettes to gorecki to nine inch nails to Hank Williams to assemblage 23 to the misfits to Mozart to Jimmy Martin to Hank 3 to Imelda may to Amy winehouse to the doors to cronos quartet to straight up roman catholic gregorian chant

So yeah....we are talking more than just 3 styles of music here
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Then I suggest you give very strong consideration to H-frame dipole subs using the 15" Eminence Alpha. I built a pair and I have not heard more musical, pure, tone rich, robust, rumbling, fast, punchy bass. I'm not talking on a budget, I'm talking period. They will not go over 90 db, however.....so if you need to loosen the light bulbs in the house then look elsewhere. But the LF presence they offer at lower volumes, say less than 80 db, is amazing. And at normal listening volumes, say around 85 db, they are very, very impressive and I've never, ever heard a monopole box sub sound so natural, fast, and musical. The Watkins drivers in my QLS-1's are in the same league, but I think in most areas the Alphas in the H-frame enclosures have the edge. The Watkins will go subsonic and remain flat doing so and the Alphas in the H-frame down to around 35 Hz. I can't say there is much, if any, musical content missing with the Alphas compared to the Watkins. Plus they have the speed to keep up with my ESL's and planars and being dipolar have a presence that is congruent with the dipolar Acoustats and Magnepans. Bottom line is I'm never left disappointed with the performance of the H-frames. One of my best discoveries in the hobby....for sure.
 
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