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Amplifier Sensitivity, Decibels, and You!

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I have in my system :

1.Technics SH-X1000 DAC with output voltage 2,5Vrms and impedance 600Ohm

2. Yamaha preamp CX-1000 with 150mV input sensitivity and pre out 1,5V

3. Yamaha amp with 1,62V input sensitivity and 60kOhm impedance.

I understand that there is a perfect match between pre / amp and very big mismatch between DAC and pre / amp.
That's the reason why I turn a volume only a little 8 o'clock
room is overloaded of sound!
Am I right?

Should I simply remove active preamp and use high quality passive controller?

Thanks,
From the figures above, the maximum gain of the CX-1000 preamp is +20dB. By using the "Mute" function the gain will be reduced by -20dB, i.e. the overall maximum gain of the preamp will be reduced to 0dB. This is therefore the same as if a passive controller were used.

I would think this might be the easiest way of making the volume control work over a more easily adjusted part of it's range. Alternatively you could fit in-line attenuators between the DAC and preamp.

- Richard B.
 
I already removed active pre and put ledger attenuator into my power amp. Much, much better.

Thanks for pointing this issue out Richard !
 
Well that confirms my suspicion that FM used to sound better than it does now, unless my hearing is just going to hell... :scratch2:

The music also used to be better. Current (contemporary?) music may accelerate your hearing impairment if you are subject to it for a prolonged time.
 
Anyone have any idea what the output voltage is on an ipod or computer's headphone jack? I run a cord from these to the RCA inputs on my reciever. I know the computer is significantly higher than the ipod, but was curious to do the math and find where my max output is at on the -dB scale.
 
attenuate line inputs to match phono level(s)

"If the volume control has to be set so low that it's difficult to accurately adjust it, then it's always possible to fit in-line attenuators between the source and the amplifier." Richard B/240V

My B&O cartiges are of such low output that switching from phono inputs to line level sources can be scary when I fail to back off the volume control by about 40%, especially when a compressed CD is playing. Is there a simple resistor network I could fab into the pre at the line input jacks (Yamaha C85-with RCAs soldered right into the circuitboard so I guess series resistance would be difficult)? It would be heaven if the sources were matched. phil
 
"If the volume control has to be set so low that it's difficult to accurately adjust it, then it's always possible to fit in-line attenuators between the source and the amplifier." Richard B/240V

My B&O cartiges are of such low output that switching from phono inputs to line level sources can be scary when I fail to back off the volume control by about 40%, especially when a compressed CD is playing. Is there a simple resistor network I could fab into the pre at the line input jacks (Yamaha C85-with RCAs soldered right into the circuitboard so I guess series resistance would be difficult)? It would be heaven if the sources were matched. phil

It seems to me that instead of trying to fabricate your own resistor network inside the pre-amp (which as you say would be difficult with the RCA connectors on your C85 soldered directly to the PCB) it would be much easier to fit external attenuators on whichever inputs required it.

The attached picture shows typical attenuators. I've seen them in different values from -10dB to -20dB and at prices ranging from £5 ($10) to £100 ($200) per pair. I've not auditioned any so I can't say if there is an effect on the sound quality, however the manufacturers claim an improvement due to the reduced signal level the pre-amplifier has to handle.

- Richard B.
 

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I want to use an external amp off of my AV receiver. The pre-outs on the receiver are 1.0V and the input sensitivity on the amp is 1.25V.
Will this be a problem?
 
AFAIK the maximum audio signal levels for FM broadcasts are very strictly controlled (at least here in the UK, but I guess the same applies in other countries as well).
...

What has happened with some radio stations in the UK is that the average level has increased even though the maximum level is unchanged. Subjectively the broadcast sounds louder. This is achieved by compressing the audio. It may sound better on portable and car radios, but on a decent hi-fi system it sounds terrible. :thumbsdn:

- Richard B.

OR, it makes your station sound comparatively louder than the other guy, making (average) folks more likely to stop flipping channels.
 
Well that confirms my suspicion that FM used to sound better than it does now, unless my hearing is just going to hell... :scratch2:

Well, that and the music was better. :beatnik:

Same reason vinyl always sounds better than CDs: Talent :scratch2:
 
The CA-2010 (Yamaha) has input sens of 120mv (same with the CR 2020) and my CDX 900U CD Player (Yamaha) has 2v output...this yields +24.5 db (yowza! between 11 and 12 o'clock high at the BIG wheel)...watch that volume control!

The pre-amp will probably distort the signal with that much input... Check your CA-2010's meters (rec out mode), peaks should be between -5 to 0 dB.

I have noticed as time has passed that current CDs are far "hotter" than those released in the early days of CDs (late 70s?/early 80s).

This is known as the LOUDNESS-WAR. It's what endangers existence of us hifi-lovers. Even the most audiophile system will sound terrible with a compressed CD :tears:
Good thing is, technical constraints limit compression on vinyl.

Same reason vinyl always sounds better than CDs: Talent :scratch2:

Exactly, the talent and good practice of the mastering engineers. Spin that old record! :)
 
Time for one of those long, boring semi-technical posts that no one here reads... :boring:


There have been various posts from people who have just acquired a "new" vintage amplifier, have connected it up to their speakers and fed it with a nice clean signal from a (relatively) modern CD player, and have commented along the lines of "I only turned the volume up to 10 o'clock and the whole house was shaking - boy that amp is powerful".
They never seem to consider that their amplifier might well be producing near to full output power even though the volume control is nowhere near maximum - a consequence of the sensitivity mis-match between vintage and modern equipment.

It seemed to me that it would be useful to go over a few basics regarding the decibel (dB) scale and how it relates to the sensitivity of the inputs on vintage amplifiers.


First a few basics about the dB scale (and a little bit of math - but nothing too difficult :) ) :

1. The decibel is a relative rather than an absolute measurement, i.e. it is used to measure the ratio of one signal to another. I am sure everyone is most familiar with it's use in representing the signal to noise ratio of equipment.

2. Positive dB values mean that a signal is greater than the reference value (ratio greater than 1), negative dB values that it is less than the reference (ratio less than 1).

3. If a signal passes through a number of amplification (+dB) or attenuation (-dB) stages, then the overall gain is found by simply adding up the dB values of each stage. For example, assume a signal passes through components with the following typical gain : phono amplifier +60dB, pre amp -20dB, power amp +30dB : The overall gain is therefore +70dB.

4. To convert the ratio between two voltages, V1 & V2, to decibels we use the formula : dB = 20 * log(V1 / V2)
A doubling of voltage = +6dB.
Conversely, to convert a dB value to the ratio between two voltages use the formula : Voltage Ratio = 10^(dB value / 20)
(The symbol "^" means "to the power of").

5. To convert the ratio between two powers, P1 & P2 to decibels we use the formula : dB = 10 * log(P1 / P2)
A doubling of power = +3dB.
Conversely, to convert a dB value to the ratio between two powers use the formula : Power Ratio = 10^(dB value / 10)


So back to the original question : Just how far do we have to turn up the volume to get maximum output power from our amplifier?

Look at your amplifier's manual and find the sensitivity value for the input you are using. The value it gives is the input voltage required in order to produce maximum rated power when the volume control is set to maximum. If the input signal you are feeding to the amplifier is greater than the sensitivity value, then maximum output power will be produced before full volume on the control.

Let's work through a real example to make things easier to follow (using data for my Pioneer SX-1250 receiver and Marantz CD-65SE CD player - typical of many vintage amp / modern CD player combinations) :

Input sensitivity of SX-1250 "Aux" (and "Tape") inputs : 150mV
Output voltage from CD-65SE at maximum signal level : 2000mV (2V)
So the CD player output signal is 20 * log(2000 / 150) = +22dB higher than that required for full output power from the SX-1250.

What this means is that the receiver's full power of 160 watts will be produced with the volume control set to -22dB (referenced to maximum = 0dB). Fortunately, in common with much high-end equipment, the SX-1250 has a volume control marked in -dB, making it easy to see where this occurs.

Perhaps the most "surprising" thing to come out of this calculation is just how little the volume needs to be turned up to get full output : -22dB on the SX-1250 corresponds to somewhere between the 11 and 12 o'clock positions.


So the next time someone tells you how loud their system is even at low "volume" settings (and implying that it would be ten times louder if turned up fully), just pause for a minute before you get too impressed and instead consider if they may have an amplifier/source sensitivity "mis-match". :scratch2:


Finally, we can apply the same calculations to the use of graphic equalizers and bass / treble / loudness controls. If +3dB of boost is applied at some frequency, then the power required at that frequency is doubled. If +10dB of boost is applied, then the power required increases by a factor of 10. So applying high levels of equalization (for example to compensate for the falling bass response of a speaker) massively increases both the power requirements of the amplifier and the handling capacity of the speakers.

- Richard B.


Thanks for taking the time to discuss this, I feel strongly about it and love reading more on this topic. If possible, as you gain knowledge, would you mind updating your blog with extra information? It is extremely useful for me.
 
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Going back to discussion on page 1, I am curious about knowing how hard I am driving an amp with 150 mV inputs when connecting modern components. It looks like the math makes it simple for an amp with the volume marked in dB, but mine isn't. With the mis-match between my source output and amp input, are the power meters on the amp still an accurate gauge, or are they somehow "off" due to the mis-match?
 
Most amplifier "power meters" are merely voltage meters that monitor the voltage on the output terminals, and assume some load (8 ohms, 4 ohms, or whatever) to scale the readout in watts.

So, no, the power meter accuracy, or lack there of, is not affected by anything you do upstream of the amp.
 
Ok here is dumb question. I am performing an alignment on my reel to reel. It says to input a (-20dbm) 700hz signal into the input jacks of each channel. My measuring device is a volt/ohm meter a digital kind. My question is how many milivolts RMS is (-20dbm)? I tried to figure out and came up with .0775mvRMS. Am I wrong? I have an old VTVM EICO 232 but don't believe the readings.
 
I think that would be right if the input impedance was/is 600 ohms.

-20dBm is equal to 10 uW (micro watts).
 
wow. If my input set up is correct my vu meters are all low. By inputing (-20dbm) into the unit with line in knobs adjusted full clockwise, I then monitor the output of the tape deck with a vtvm and adjust left and right poteniometers inside unit for a reading of zero on the vu meters. As it sits now. with (-20dbm) input and line in full clockwise there is no reading on the vu meters. So I will have to make adjustments to bring the vu meter readings up to zero. This adjustment is the first in many for the alignment of my reel to reel. The test is called Adjustment of Source Gain. It's like anything when you start you want to have a reference to start with and that was what my question of RMS vs Dbm.
 
I'm always a little hesitant to start turning the screws when things that were mostly working before seem to be so far off on a particular setting or two.

A second or third opinion is probably in order...

Is your multimeter supposed to be relatively accurate at 700Hz?
 
You are right on. My DVM freq sensitivity is not in the range for me to use. I got some new tubes for my VTVM but still don't trust the readings yet. And now my Wavtek signal generator smoked. So will be using the free online generator from my computer via my soundboard.
 
Finally, we can apply the same calculations to the use of graphic equalizers and bass / treble / loudness controls. If +3dB of boost is applied at some frequency, then the power required at that frequency is doubled. If +10dB of boost is applied, then the power required increases by a factor of 10. So applying high levels of equalization (for example to compensate for the falling bass response of a speaker) massively increases both the power requirements of the amplifier and the handling capacity of the speakers.

- Richard B.

Richard...I did not read through all the replies, so someone may have already mentioned this, but didn't you mean massively increases the power requirements of the amplifier and decreases the handling capacity of the speakers? That is how I would believe it to be.

Thanks.
Dean
 
Certain this vintage/new sensitivity "mismatch" is what's causing my Klipsch speakers to clip with my new old Marantz 4270 at a very low volume setting. Happens while running my new CD player and HOMC DL-110 cart both! I think i'll simply try setting the 4270 to Quad mode and continue to run 2 pairs @ 25watts per. Hope that's a fix. Otherwise i'll try running my TT with a MM cart and swap in my olde 1988 vintage '"Giant Killer" Magnavox CD player and see how that goes....

Thanks for the info/sticky.
 
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