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An interesting comparison the 2M Red vs the M97xE.

catman

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G'day all, yesterday whilst doing cartridge overhang investigations in between a million 'other' things during the day, I took the opportunity to do my very best to set up the overhang/ alignment on my 2M Red as accurately as possible.

I think it was successful as there is no real IGD evident now. Accurate accurate overhang/ alignment with the 2M Red seems particularly critical, especially at the inner grooves.

Interestingly enough, I also took the opportunity to compare the 2M Red 'head to head' with the M97xE, the 2M Red loaded at 47 k and low capacitance (maybe too low capacitance), and the M97xE at 62 k and low capacitance (both low at about 150 picofarads). Two separate DIY ESP P06 phono stages were used for the evaluations.

The comparison was interesting. The 2M Red clearly plays considerably 'louder' than the M97xE (higher cartridge output), however sonically I still preferred the M97xE! Although the 2M Red is a 'crisp' sounding cartridge (a slightly rising upper treble), on the same material, the M97xE's treble was not lacking at all at 62k, but if it was loaded at 47 k it might have been. :scratch2:

Overall, the M97xE sounded smoother, better balanced and less fatiguing, whereas the 2M Red was a bit too 'in your face' and upfront for my liking. One day I'll have to try the effect of more input shunt capacitance with the 2M Red, as that might be interesting. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
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Nice post Felix :)

Although like anything I think things are system dependent, as I run a Red and there is no in ya' face aspect and zero fatigue in my system.

So I believe as with most things it is a system dependent as to whether something works well or doesn't.
 
How do you get to 62K on a standard preamp phono section that may be in a receiver or integrated amp? On mine, I have a choice of 47K, 50K, 100K & 200K.
 
G'day mate, use the 100 k position and add a 165 kohm resistor (one per channel) across each channel input. That will 'pad'' (reduce) the 100 kohm down to about 62 kohm. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
The Shure cartridge was my very first upgrade for a TT that i bought broken and repaired with info found here at AK.
At first I was disappointed in how dull it sounded but after reading some of your post and others I knew that it needed to break in and might possibly need some pre-amp modification.
My Onkyo tx 6500 mkII has 2 phono inputs so modding one of them didnt concern me too much but before I worked up the nerve to threaten it with a soldering iron,the cartridge reached the breakin period and started sounding very close to cd.(smoother,not as bright but also less harsh in the highs)
Still probably would have benefited from the phono mod but another TT came along with a low end Ortofon that was slightly brighter so It worked out great...one TT for bright records,and one TT for dull recordings.

I thank you for your post on these matters...one day I'm Shure the info will benefit me greatly.(heheh,sorry for the pun) :)
 
G'day mate, all ok. I'm always happy to help if I can. With the M97xE, if you're stuck at 47 k loading, the corect value of input shunt capacitance is rather important.

About 250 picofarads (from all sources) is about right. That value of input shunt capacitance at 47 k loading, stops the upper treble from dropping too much! Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
Felix , you are our resident M97xE guru

I should get a new M97xE but I have so many carts now. Maybe I should sell some :scratch2:
 
I dont know where I ended up for capacitance but it has really broken in nicely.I like my treble and it manages to please across the spectrum.

Problem is it tracks too good...I can hear every speck of dust,scratch and bit of groove wear now. I need better records. ;)

thanks Felix
 
G'day all, thanks for that. I guess the M97xE 'sound' (in whatever way one 'loads' it) isn't for everyone, but for me it sounds right at 62 k and quite agreeable at 47 k and the right shunt input capacitance.

I have an aversion to 'fatiguing' cartridges. They may sound quite appealing at first listen but quickly become tiring (to the ears).

As Datafone correctly comments 'system matching and dependency', is a big part of the equation too. It can get complex, but it's fun. :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.

Addition: Regarding the 2M Red, I seem to recall somebody suggesting to me that the 2M Red 'sound' was an attempt to replicate 'CD' sound with a phono cartridge. The way that I hear the 2M Red, that makes a lot of sense.
 
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Try the 2M Red at higher capacitance say around 275 it should smooth out the high end nicely. I have one on loan from a friend and hated it till I tried it with higher capacitance cables. Now it's one of my favorites in rotation.
 
G'day mate, yes I will try that one of these days when I feel a little less tired. A poor night's sleep last night hasn't helped today. :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
G'day mate, I have M97xE's on two turntables, a Dual CS-515 and a Kenwood KD-1500, both with low capacitance interconnects with an overall value of about 140 picofaras overall, including tonearm wiring and phono preamp input capacitance. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
When I owned a pair if Thiel 2.3's the Shure 97Xe was a perfect cart as it tamed the very detailed top end of those speskers. However when I traded them in for a pair of Aerial Model 6's with the warmer top end it was not a good match. I replaced it w/a 2M Blue which really brought the speakers to life. Matching the right cart w/your speakers is an important consideration.:music:
 
When I owned a pair if Thiel 2.3's the Shure 97Xe was a perfect cart as it tamed the very detailed top end of those speskers. However when I traded them in for a pair of Aerial Model 6's with the warmer top end it was not a good match. I replaced it w/a 2M Blue which really brought the speakers to life. Matching the right cart w/your speakers is an important consideration.:music:

Yes, at the end of the day it´s good if we like what´s presented by our speakers. For some that will mean a certain cart. is doing it right, for others another cart will suit better. Which cartridge is objectively better is very difficult to know, in many cases there are no 'truth'. For some a 2Mred is less fatiguing than a 97xe. Less fatiguing for me is another cartridge.

When listening to the WAV-files, presented in some thread, I think by beatcomber, it was very obvious how difficult it is to draw any conclusions if we don´t know what cartridge we are listening to. The phantom perception is real and very strong, we must have an open mind and understand that most of our perception comes from knowing what we are listening to. If not
knowing we are lost.
gusten
 
Hey...I hear ya...had a Red...don't even know if it lasted and hour LOL!!!

Right with you Felix on the fatiguing...can't stand it!!

Question...have you ever tried Nagaoka??
 
Don't worry...broken in already LOL!!!

Maybe just not a fan or Ortofons...haven't heard one that I could live with...yet :)
 
Ah, OK, definitely had me worried for a sec there :)

Edit: I was thinking of trying the Nagaoka 555, a change is always interesting, at least until I can afford something good. But I have read the mids of the 555 are thin?
 
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In my search for a baseline entry level cartridge, I did some internet surfing on reviews and prices on many cartridges in the $100 Range. My conclusion is that the Nagoaka MP110 - the replacement for their MP11, which I have, and throughly enjoy and the Ortofon Red would be my first choice. I'm reading good reviews on the Shure M97 too (the one thats about$75) and in the right application might do a fine job, but for the price difference I'd choose the Ortofon or Nagoaka. I was looking at Rega Tables and find their Bias II entry level and the next up Elys II cartridges look like fine choices, even for other Tables. Actually Nagoaka and Ortofon might be my choice for mid-range cartridges, say to the $500 range as well.
 
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