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And Now For Something Completely Different

Superman541

Well-Known Member
I truly do not understand electronics but have been doing some reading. I wonder about a suitable preamp for my Dynaco ST70 and was looking at Bottlehead. Looking there, I noticed their loudspeaker amps have approximately 1/10 of the power of my Dynaco. (Stereomore produces 3.5 WPC) "What gives," I wonder? Then I see this post in another thread:

For what it's worth the input sensitivity of the st35 is 1 volt for full output. The beepre has a max output of 18vrms. You could probably run the st35 with a passive preamp. If you are looking to move into set's and have the speakers for it. I would recommend looking at the stereomour 2 for a few bucks more than the beepre.

If true, this suggests the Bottlehead pre (BeePree) output signal is WAY WAY WAY beyond what my ST70 will handle. Are electronic devices (amps and preamps, for example) really this incompatible? It looks like Bottlehead's recipe for hifi sound is to use a preamp that sends a REALLY strong signal to a power amp that has a REALLY wimpy output and then use speakers that are REALLY sensitive.

I must be missing something here. Are hifi systems really this completely different and incompatible? What am I not understanding here?
 
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It shouldn't be a problem, but much depends on the line level puy level of the source(s) as to whether a passive control is appropriate. One volt rms sensitivity for full output may or may no be sufficient. One half should be, one and a half probably not, depends on the specific amp.
 
you can put them together, all that happens when the preamp puts out a lot more than the amp needs is the useful portion of the volume control ends up in the lower part of travel. Full output might be at 10:00 on the control, and its just overly touchy way down low. If thats just too obnoxious you can get passive attenuators that sit between the preamp and power amp to deal with that.


my preamp I think claims 20v of output, and my Bogens are basically 1.5 volts in for their full 95 watts of output. I've never actually measured the preamp's output but for line level sources it ends up with the control roughly at 12:00. The phono stage is actually a little hotter than it needs to be, I run that closer to 9:30-10:00. I suspect it doesn't actually make 20v of output, but even if it does, in practice its not as much of a mismatch as you'd think it would be.
 
I truly do not understand electronics but have been doing some reading. I wonder about a suitable preamp for my Dynaco ST70 and was looking at Bottlehead. Looking there, I noticed their loudspeaker amps have approximately 1/10 of the power of my Dynaco. (Stereomore produces 3.5 WPC) "What gives," I wonder? Then I see this post in another thread:

If true, this suggests the Bottlehead pre (BeePree) output signal is WAY WAY WAY beyond what my ST70 will handle. Are electronic devices (amps and preamps, for example) really this incompatible? It looks like Bottlehead's recipe for hifi sound is to use a preamp that sends a REALLY strong signal to a power amp that has a REALLY wimpy output and then use speakers that are REALLY sensitive.

I must be missing something here. Are hifi systems really this completely different and incompatible? What am I not understanding here?
Most all modern amps can be driven to full power output with less than the signal that's provided by most line level sources, like a CD player or the output from a DAC. So in that case a "passive preamp", which is nothing more than a simple volume control, is all that's really needed. It attenuates, or reduces, the level of the signal going into the amp unless it's turned all the way up.

Despite this, most all preamps have gain, which means they boost the signal coming from the source. But the more they boost, the more of the signal ends up being shunted to ground by the volume control. And this reduces the useful range of adjustment of the volume control, so it's harder to make minor level adjustments.

So why use a preamp? In most cases they allow you to switch between multiple inputs. Older ones might also have tone controls while newer ones might have remote control of various functions. But gain is often not strictly needed when using line level sources. If you use a turntable, its output is very weak so you will need significant gain to boost it up to line level. Some people also find that an active preamp increases dynamics or that it adds a bit of flavor, especially if it's a tube preamp. Others prefer a simple volume control.

As for amplifier power, you may not even be using 1 watt, depending on how loud you listen and how efficient your speakers are. If your speakers are rated at 90 db/w/m, that means they produce 90 decibels with a 1w input at a distance of 1 meter (39"). Of course, if you're further from the speakers you need more power to produce the same db level at your listening position. For every meter you move back, you need 2x the wattage to maintain the level. You will find that 90db is quite loud and it's probably safe to say that most people don't typically listen at such high levels, although I'm sure some might.

Also, if you double the power output, you don't get twice as much volume, you only get an extra 3db, which is not that much. To hear what a 3db increase sounds like just move 1m (39") closer to your speakers. It takes 10x the wattage to make it sound, subjectively, "twice as loud".

So if you want more volume, you can increase the wattage or you can use more efficient speakers, or some combination of the two. So a low wattage amp used with highly efficient speakers can play louder than a higher wattage amp with lower efficiency speakers, even with the same signal level being input from the source.

I don't know what the input sensitivity is for the ST70 and it probably depends on whether or not it's an original version or one of the currently produced versions. The original was obviously meant to be used with the PAS preamp sold by Dynaco. Some of the newer ones can be ordered with simple volume control built in but then they also sell preamps.

Bottom line, try both passive and active and see what you like best. As with everything audio, some pieces work better together than others but they aren't typically incompatible in the strictest sense.
 
The BeePre actually only has 8.3dB *gain* while a Dynaco PAS has 20dB gain in the line stage alone. So while it puts out more voltage than you need, it has less gain than a typical tube preamp of the era. In that respect it would probably work fine, being a nice cross between a passive pre and a tube pre. I like a preamp in my system, not only for the convenience of selecting inputs but for the added drive, dynamics and "tone" it can add to the system overall.
 
With an earlier preamp I was using with my Dynaco ST-70 had a high output.
The ST-70 would resch full output at about 10:00 on the volume control.
I added a 100 ohm olive pot to my Dynaco. I removed the stereo/mono switch and installed the volume control where the switch was. Then I could just turn that control down so that I had more range with the volume control on the preamp. Or you can put a volume control in a box and put it between the preamp and amp. VTA sells a.volume control kit with instructions to install it in a ST-70. I think they have an option to buy a box also.
 
you can put them together, all that happens when the preamp puts out a lot more than the amp needs is the useful portion of the volume control ends up in the lower part of travel. Full output might be at 10:00 on the control, and its just overly touchy way down low. If thats just too obnoxious you can get passive attenuators that sit between the preamp and power amp to deal with that.


my preamp I think claims 20v of output, and my Bogens are basically 1.5 volts in for their full 95 watts of output. I've never actually measured the preamp's output but for line level sources it ends up with the control roughly at 12:00. The phono stage is actually a little hotter than it needs to be, I run that closer to 9:30-10:00. I suspect it doesn't actually make 20v of output, but even if it does, in practice its not as much of a mismatch as you'd think it would be.

I have a library of Isaac Asimov fact books in my Big White Throne room (if you know what I mean). I love them, and I appreciate Gadget's posts here. Both are great "explainers." I am grateful for Azimov's appetite for attention, and for Gadget's patience and generosity. This is a great explanation of what I would deal with in feeding an ST70 with a high-output pre.
 
I have a library of Isaac Asimov fact books in my Big White Throne room (if you know what I mean). I love them, and I appreciate Gadget's posts here. Both are great "explainers." I am grateful for Azimov's appetite for attention, and for Gadget's patience and generosity. This is a great explanation of what I would deal with in feeding an ST70 with a high-output pre.

A bit off-topic, but a company I consult for is in negotiations to reissue, in audio, dozens and dozens of old Asimov books. They asked me to explore what might be worth licensing. I was astounded to find that there probably isn't a single Asimov book on science/math/history that thousands of people don't cherish. His guides to the Bible, Shakespeare, history etc. are still considered some of the best available. I recommended they get whatever they could. The man was a genius.
 
"For what it's worth the input sensitivity of the st35 is 1 volt for full output. "

If true, this suggests the Bottlehead pre (BeePree) output signal is WAY WAY WAY beyond what my ST70 will handle.

That quote is for a ST35 not a ST70. I have seen several threads about a ST70, especially the new versions, need a preamp to hit full power.
 
"For what it's worth the input sensitivity of the st35 is 1 volt for full output. "

That quote is for a ST35 not a ST70. I have seen several threads about a ST70, especially the new versions, need a preamp to hit full power.
Yeah, I recall a recent thread where this was discussed. Despite the fact that the sensitivity specs provided by the manufacturer would clearly suggest that a preamp would not be needed, it actually was needed. So take their claims with a grain of salt, even if they offer a version with a simple volume pot installed in the amp (as an extra cost option, of course).
 
Most all modern amps can be driven to full power output with less than the signal that's provided by most line level sources, like a CD player or the output from a DAC. So in that case a "passive preamp", which is nothing more than a simple volume control, is all that's really needed. It attenuates, or reduces, the level of the signal going into the amp unless it's turned all the way up.

......
As for amplifier power, you may not even be using 1 watt, depending on how loud you listen and how efficient your speakers are. If your speakers are rated at 90 db/w/m, that means they produce 90 decibels with a 1w input at a distance of 1 meter (39"). Of course, if you're further from the speakers you need more power to produce the same db level at your listening position. For every meter you move back, you need 2x the wattage to maintain the level. You will find that 90db is quite loud and it's probably safe to say that most people don't typically listen at such high levels, although I'm sure some might.

.....

Keep in mind that there is a difference in the output levels of a professional preamp and the consumer preamps. Professional amplifiers measure the input level in DBV. There is also a difference in peak-to-peak input levels and rms input level. Be alert to what the specification actually is. CD players are sometimes rated as 2V PP, other times it is 2V RMS and anything between.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

To get the same SPL at twice the distance requires 4 times the power, at three times the distance 9 times the power, goes to the square.

Astute people can notice a 2 dB difference in volume level, many only when it gets higher than that.

Most mastering of music gets done at 75 - 85 dDB SPL with some final listing being done higher than that. https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/mix-right-volume-level/

Most modern music gets compressed to about 20 - 30dB level between soft and loud.

I have some 84dB sensitive speakers next to the computer and a 3W amplifier. I normally listen at 50 -120mW average level. That gives me 20 times headroom.

If I want to go louder I either grab a solid state amplifier or go to more sensitive speakers depending on the size of the woofer. Small woofers suffer dramatically from dynamic compression, there is marked difference in dynamics if you go from a 5" woofer to a 15" woofer. E.g. if you have 85 dB speakers and use a 10 watt amplifier then theoretically it will produce the same SPL as a 1 Watt amplifier with 95dB speakers or 100 mW in the Klipsch La Scala (105dB). The Klipsch Classic range has around 98 -99dB sensitivity.

I cannot understand those who are intend on running big amplifiers and wanting to "feel" the lowest bass (40Hz and lower). I think they do not realise they destroy the drywall in their homes. A 2% distortion of 30Hz being at 60Hz sounds louder then the fundamental 30Hz tone.

Hearing gets damaged at exposure to too high levels, in-ear headphones being the worst culprits. https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html
 
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