Another DAC comparison... Do they really make a difference?

[RunOutGroove]

So... my Chord Qutest DAC died and in sending it out to the the place where they repair these things, The Sound Organization (an odd name, I think), I unfortunately got a really high quote for fixing the thing, which was apparently about the most that it can possibly cost (apparently it was totally fried and needed a whole new board). Fortunately I had another DAC to use in the interim, an Aune XS1, which I had never used, but got in a trade for another piece of audio gear that I couldn't seem to sell. The Aune actually sounded pretty good to me, and better at least than what I remember of my previous DAC, a Schiit Modius. It was good enough and the repair bill expensive enough that I considered not getting the Chord repaired. Eventually, I deiced to go with the repair and I just got the thing back... I just did the swap but before that, I listened to a few CDs run through the Aune DAC and then those ones again though the Chord, once I had it hooked up. I wasn't able to do a true A/B comparison, which would have been more ideal, but in listening to one and then the other after it was hooked up (which took a while due to the tangle of wires in my system), I feel like I was able to hear some differnces. I will say that the Auene, though it sounded reasonably good to me was easily bested by the Chord. The Chord offers far more speration between the instruments and the instruments themselves had more richness/overtones which make them sound more like real instruments. Of course this is probably no surpise becuase the Chord goes for a number of times more than the Auene, but then again, a lot of folks seem to believe that there really aren't great differnces in DACs no mater what the price. I feel that the differences I'm hearing between these two DACs are more than subtle, even through my somewhat less than high resolution old (but well maintained) Marantz 2270 that I'm using for amplification.

If there's one issue that I have with the Chord, it may be that it's slightly too crispy sounding. I didn't find that the filters on it did much, and I wonder if it's worth experimenting with RCA cables, and in that case I wonder if folks have any recommedations of RCA cables that have a bit of a warmer sound, but won't break the bank?

The music I used for comparison was: Jack Dejohnette - Album Album, Herbie Hancock - Thrust, Cachaito - self titled (a great Cuban bass player).

 

[theophile]

Allow the Chord to run in. Play it for a month then do the comparison again.

 

[Mystic]

Allow the Chord to run in. Play it for a month then do the comparison again.

Yep.

 

[Mart Mccall]

Qutest has very low output impedance, Aune doesn't. Also Qutest has three different options for output voltage, none of which match the Aune's at 2.2V.

Not saying these are definitely the reasons for sonic differences but they could be. Especially when outputting into a vintage receiver which was designed back when output voltage of source components were lower.

 

[twiiii]

Buying a DAC today is just as problematic as it was buying a Phono Cartridge in the 60's and 70's. Phono cartridges have really improved over the lat 50 years. Lets hope it only takes a fraction of that time for DAC manufacturers and chip makes to improve as much. The main problem is if your streaming is all the messaging and alterations the streaming corporations apply compromising the original source.

 

[spark1]

Buying a DAC today is just as problematic as it was buying a Phono Cartridge in the 60's and 70's. Phono cartridges have really improved over the lat 50 years. Lets hope it only takes a fraction of that time for DAC manufacturers and chip makes to improve as much. The main probslem is if your streaming is all the messaging and alterations the streaming corporations apply compromising the original source.

Interesting. Can you provide any definitive resource(s) describing these "alterations"? Thanks.

 

[GChief]

Interesting. Can you provide any definitive resource(s) describing these "alterations"? Thanks.

+1

Probably just talking points

 

[twiiii]

All I know is when I compare streamed music to the CD's and Lp's I own there can be only a very minimal difference to almost as if the version was an after thought remix sounding totally different from the original. I know its not the DAC, so it has to be the people transmitting the stream. FM stations were that bad and even though there is HD FM now days you can still hear dynamic and voicing changes quite cosistently. So, yes, streaming is better than FM stations anytime.

Thats why I only buy from iTunes when I can't find the original recording on LP or CD/SACD. Acoustic Sounds is a great source of uncompromised reissues and rare Lp's and CD's. too. But they are not cheap. Fair most of the time, but the ultra rare can be quite pricey.

 

[RunOutGroove]

Allow the Chord to run in. Play it for a month then do the comparison again.

Well. I won't be doing the comparison again. I already feel like the Chord is a big step up from he Auene in terms of sound quality. There's also the fact that on my system, with the gear backed up to a wall, too short cords and too much gear jammed together, it's too hard for me to get to for me to want to do many swaps of things. I hadn't really thought of the fact that with a new board, that the DAC is essentially a new DAC and that it's character may change as it burns in. The edginess to the sound is pretty slight and honestly not that much of a complaint (the instrument separation and overall depth and clarity to the music is so great), but it would be nice to hear it mellow just a bit with break-in... though I'm not sure how much that's really a factor with these things. It seems like it would be more of a factor with R2R DACs than chip based ones.

Qutest has very low output impedance, Aune doesn't. Also Qutest has three different options for output voltage, none of which match the Aune's at 2.2V.

Not saying these are definitely the reasons for sonic differences but they could be. Especially when outputting into a vintage receiver which was designed back when output voltage of source components were lower.

I've never messed with the output voltage controls on the Qutest, as it sounded so good to me right out of the box (when I first got the thing, well before the repair). If there was a difference in volume between the Aune and the Chord, it was pretty minor as when I swapped them I kept the volume on the amp set the same and they seemed to be equally as loud. Of course if I had the means to do an A/B comparison, I might have noticed a subtle difference in levels.

All I know is when I compare streamed music to the CD's and Lp's I own there can be only a very minimal difference to almost as if the version was an after thought remix sounding totally different from the original. I know its not the DAC, so it has to be the people transmitting the stream. FM stations were that bad and even though there is HD FM now days you can still hear dynamic and voicing changes quite cosistently. So, yes, streaming is better than FM stations anytime.

Thats why I only buy from iTunes when I can't find the original recording on LP or CD/SACD. Acoustic Sounds is a great source of uncompromised reissues and rare Lp's and CD's. too. But they are not cheap. Fair most of the time, but the ultra rare can be quite pricey.

I've never bought any recordings, CD or LP that were either audiophile versions or on labels that call themself "audiophile" (with the exception of a just a few audiophile edition CDs, which sound very good, but I don't hear that they're anything particularly special). I find that just the regular stuff from labels like Blue Note, ECM, and the like tend to be very well recorded and mastered.

 

[spark1]

All I know is when I compare streamed music to the CD's and Lp's I own there can be only a very minimal difference to almost as if the version was an after thought remix sounding totally different from the original. I know its not the DAC, so it has to be the people transmitting the stream. FM stations were that bad and even though there is HD FM now days you can still hear dynamic and voicing changes quite cosistently. So, yes, streaming is better than FM stations anytime.

Thats why I only buy from iTunes when I can't find the original recording on LP or CD/SACD. Acoustic Sounds is a great source of uncompromised reissues and rare Lp's and CD's. too. But they are not cheap. Fair most of the time, but the ultra rare can be quite pricey.

I doubt that the streaming services are doing remixes. They don't have the original tapes/files, which would be a prerequisite.

As for sounding different than the vinyl version;, well of course it does.

And you've left out the distributor - the entity that delivers the file to the streaming service - as a potential source of difference.

Personally, I've not noticed any differences between CD and "hi-res" FLAC, assuming same version.

 

[Mart Mccall]

I've never messed with the output voltage controls on the Qutest, as it sounded so good to me right out of the box (when I first got the thing, well before the repair). If there was a difference in volume between the Aune and the Chord, it was pretty minor as when I swapped them I kept the volume on the amp set the same and they seemed to be equally as loud. Of course if I had the means to do an A/B comparison, I might have noticed a subtle difference in levels.

be interesting to see what output voltage you have the Chord set to. If it isn't the 1 volt option then give that a go, it might just get rid of the bit of 'edginess' that you're perceiving.

 

[Natasha Bell]

So... my Chord Qutest DAC died and in sending it out to the the place where they repair these things, The Sound Organization (an odd name, I think), I unfortunately got a really high quote for fixing the thing, which was apparently about the most that it can possibly cost (apparently it was totally fried and needed a whole new board). Fortunately I had another DAC to use in the interim, an Aune XS1, which I had never used, but got in a trade for another piece of audio gear that I couldn't seem to sell. The Aune actually sounded pretty good to me, and better at least than what I remember of my previous DAC, a Schiit Modius. It was good enough and the repair bill expensive enough that I considered not getting the Chord repaired. Eventually, I deiced to go with the repair and I just got the thing back... I just did the swap but before that, I listened to a few CDs run through the Aune DAC and then those ones again though the Chord, once I had it hooked up. I wasn't able to do a true A/B comparison, which would have been more ideal, but in listening to one and then the other after it was hooked up (which took a while due to the tangle of wires in my system), I feel like I was able to hear some differnces. I will say that the Auene, though it sounded reasonably good to me was easily bested by the Chord. The Chord offers far more speration between the instruments and the instruments themselves had more richness/overtones which make them sound more like real instruments. Of course this is probably no surpise becuase the Chord goes for a number of times more than the Auene, but then again, a lot of folks seem to believe that there really aren't great differnces in DACs no mater what the price. I feel that the differences I'm hearing between these two DACs are more than subtle, even through my somewhat less than high resolution old (but well maintained) Marantz 2270 that I'm using for amplification.

If there's one issue that I have with the Chord, it may be that it's slightly too crispy sounding. I didn't find that the filters on it did much, and I wonder if it's worth experimenting with RCA cables, and in that case I wonder if folks have any recommedations of RCA cables that have a bit of a warmer sound, but won't break the bank?

The music I used for comparison was: Jack Dejohnette - Album Album, Herbie Hancock - Thrust, Cachaito - self titled (a great Cuban bass player).

I have found that DACs make a huge difference. My Pioneer PD59 sounded rather lackluster with its internal DAC, but really came alive when I paired it with an inexpensive Schitt Audio Modi 3+; it was even better with the ESS Twin-chip Sabre DAC in my preamp. I can definitely hear the difference in a lot of the music I listen to. In addition, the soundstage seemed to expand in both width and depth.

 

[Gigantic]

I have found that DACs make a huge difference. My Pioneer PD59 sounded rather lackluster with its internal DAC, but really came alive when I paired it with an inexpensive Schitt Audio Modi 3+; it was even better with the ESS Twin-chip Sabre DAC in my preamp. I can definitely hear the difference in a lot of the music I listen to. In addition, the soundstage seemed to expand in both width and depth.

I think it ultimately depends... my first DAC was a Schiit Modi3+ and using my Oppo BDP-83 and BDP-103 as a transport, I couldn't really tell a difference, however streaming from my laptop and I-Devices, it was pretty remarkable. Upgrading to a mid-range Schiit Bifrost 2/64 brought more improvements, however not as distinct and the initial improvements in sound going from the onboard DACs in my devices. The law of diminishing returns applies to DACs in that while they can definitely get better, the more you spend, spending 3 times as much doesn't get you a DAC that's 3 times better. Audiophiles likely already understand. this.

 

[2FarGone]

The law of diminishing returns applies to DACs in that while they can definitely get better, the more you spend, spending 3 times as much doesn't get you a DAC that's 3 times better. Audiophiles likely already understand. this.

The law of diminishing returns applies to pretty much everything, though -especially items associated with high-end anything. A Rolex doesn’t keep time any better than a Timex, but the Timex won’t snag you any status hanging out with the boys at the yacht club. Quite the opposite. Those who snidely dismiss buyers of higher echelon luxury products (audio or otherwise) as people with “more money than brains” are themselves dismissed by that group as hoi polloi - utterly lacking in any sense of taste and refinement. It’s been going on for a long time.

”And the beat goes on, the beat goes on...”

 

[Kodaline]

I doubt that the streaming services are doing remixes. They don't have the original tapes/files, which would be a prerequisite.

As for sounding different than the vinyl version;, well of course it does.

And you've left out the distributor - the entity that delivers the file to the streaming service - as a potential source of difference.

Personally, I've not noticed any differences between CD and "hi-res" FLAC, assuming same version.

I've noticed this thread has already descended into the lancing of sacred cows, with requests for dissertation level sources in an informal conversation, and the destruction of other people's arguments by claiming they have forgotten things. Leaving the cows alone, one can see that media, be it streamed or otherwise, shows up noticeably poorly to a good DAC if it is of a low sampling rate, or is very compressed or brickwalled. As a further note, one who is familiar with the original work might, when presented by a third party "remastered" version, be reminded of the joke about the editor and the author in the desert, and prefer the original. Thus, I would think the complaint about the streaming is not of the usual dead horse fight over owning the media or not, but, rather, that an inferior copy is being served, for whatever reason. As one who can tell a reworked CD from an original issue as well as from the vinyl of an album of which I am familiar, I agree with the point.

While there are diminishing returns in items, telling the time is not an apt analogy for listening to music. Were the attempt to merely convey the information, the analogy would hold, but it is in the quality of the sound where the worth is. That being said, I do agree that higher end products are wasted in a mundane system (including room and media, as well as the system itself) until the system is improved.

 

[RunOutGroove]

be interesting to see what output voltage you have the Chord set to. If it isn't the 1 volt option then give that a go, it might just get rid of the bit of 'edginess' that you're perceiving.

I did try that and I found that it mostly just made everything quieter and the sound overall when turned up loud seemed to take a bit of a hit. The default seemed to be that 2v setting, which is waht I set it back to. Funny, but either the unit is burning in a bit, or my ears are just acclimating more to the sound, but I find myslef a bit less bothered by the edginess of the sound than I was before. The filter settings are super-subtle, but experimenting with them I did find that the "warm"setting softened the top end just a bit so I'll just try to remember to kick that on when I'm listening to any particular recording where the high end it a bit too strident. I may still experiment with other RCA cables in the future to see if that does anything for it...

Overall, I would say that this DAC just pulls more information out of the music, which in turn means a greater listening experience. I haven't done much in the way of really "deep listening," where I'm sitting in the sweet spot, only concentrating on the music, but I know that when I do, I'll get a bit more out of the experience than I was getting with the other DAC and that makes it worth it.