Anti-skate - full!!??

[vmartell]

I think I have hit again the limits of my knowledge.

1) Finally bought a test record, which includes the blank grooves for anti-skate setup

2) I have been using recommendation: Anti-skate = VTF

3) When setting up with test record, recommendation above was not even in the ballpark! had to set anti-skate all the way up in order to get the arm to not move in the blank groove

Is this normal and/or OK? Should I leave like that? or is Anti-Skate Force = VTF the rule, and should set that instead?

Thnx in advance!

V

 

[lini]

Do not trust the "tip on blank vinyl" approach - that may sometimes work out, but one better wouldn't rely on that. If the test record offers modulation test tracks, first set the antiskating so that the distortion starts at the same modulation for both channels. And then reduce it quite a good bit - the more so, the higher modulation the cart/needle actually masters. The latter step serves to avoid the optimisation for the minority of really heavily modulated parts. And "a good bit" may even mean some 50 %, if you have a cart that still won't distort at 90 µm...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[WaynerN]

Or, you have an older turntable, and your anti-skating system does not work as well as it should? Many tonearms use springs to set the anti-skate and these springs lose their "power" as the turntable ages. The blank disc is an excellent way to find out your anti-skate system's effectiveness.

 

[Valveglow]

Or, you have an older turntable, and your anti-skating system does not work as well as it should? Many tonearms use springs to set the anti-skate and these springs lose their "power" as the turntable ages. The blank disc is an excellent way to find out your anti-skate system's effectiveness.

As above. "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that spring!"

 

[jrtrent]

Some manufacturers believe that the blank disc method of setting anti-skate results in too much being applied. For example, Sumiko writes, "Anti-Skate (or mechanical bias) is added to compensate for this force in order to equalize the stylus tracking on the sides of the groove walls. Because this is a dynamic force, do not attempt adjustment using a blank or grooveless record, as this will result in over compensation."

 

[cgutz]

I found the blank disc results in too much AS on my vintage Kenwoods, which use weighted lever and/or string weight method of AS.

IAW Manfred's post, about 60-75% of the VTF worked best for me, using the listening test over time. YMMV.

 

[danj]

Is the turntable level?

 

[vmartell]

Is the turntable level?

Thanks for all your help. To answer a few questions from the kind people providing advice

1) Turntable is leveled - as per my phone app, I don't have a bubble level

2) The turntable is a new AT LP120 , recently serviced by AT. Will try on a Technics SL-D3 when I get home

A bit confused though, a few opinions indicate that AS= VTF is not a rule to follow while troubleshooting suggestions like the one above seem to indicate that AS=VTF should more or less apply and something might be off in the table and/or setup...


Is setting up based on listening a good approach? Could I damage my records if I do too little or too much based on my listening? or if leaving as currently is, all the way up on the basis that it doesn't move on the blank groove, will it damage my records too?

Thanks for the kind help

V

 

[iLUVanalog]

Thanks for all your help. To answer a few questions from the kind people providing advice

1) Turntable is leveled - as per my phone app, I don't have a bubble level

2) The turntable is a new AT LP120 , recently serviced by AT. Will try on a Technics SL-D3 when I get home

A bit confused though, a few opinions indicate that AS= VTF is not a rule to follow while troubleshooting suggestions like the one above seem to indicate that AS=VTF should more or less apply and something might be off in the table and/or setup...


Is setting up based on listening a good approach? Could I damage my records if I do too little or too much based on my listening? or if leaving as currently is, all the way up on the basis that it doesn't move on the blank groove, will it damage my records too?

Thanks for the kind help

V

The AS=VTF rule in general is a starting point, and you micro-adjust in either direction from there...preferably by ear. If you happen to have a mono recording, a Telarc OmniDisc, or an electronic measuring device of some sort, all the better. Some cartridges require less AS...others need more. And I agree with the others...using a blank/groove-less LP is not a good idea because you will apply too much AS. The use of a groove-less LP to set AS has been debunked.

 

[vmartell]

The AS=VTF rule in general is a starting point, and you micro-adjust in either direction from there...preferably by ear. If you happen to have a mono recording, a Telarc OmniDisc, or an electronic measuring device of some sort, all the better. Some cartridges require less AS...others need more. And I agree with the others...using a blank/groove-less LP is not a good idea because you will apply too much AS. The use of a groove-less LP to set AS has been debunked by the high-end journals.

That comment was golden - answered all my questions in a single post! thnx! Will fix as soon as I get home.

I just hope I did not damage my records by using full AS....

Thnx

V

 

[gadget73]

I'd pick up a bubble level and confirm that it is indeed level. Most phones aren't quite perfectly flat.

 

[Ilikevinyl]

You want the arm to move very slowly toward the spindle when using a grooveless record or between wide spaced leadout grooves. Keeping the arm stationary is too much anti-skating. You want the arm to have freedom of movement.

 

[JohnMichael]

I set antiskate by ear. Choose an album that is balanced over the soundstage. Start with 0 antiskating force and slowly adjust until left and right channels are equal. At first the left channel will be louder and more solid sounding. As you adjust the antiskate the right will begin to match the left. If you go to far the soundstage will collapse and then you back off the antiskate a little.

 

[Dr Tinear]

Thanks for all your help. To answer a few questions from the kind people providing advice

1) Turntable is leveled - as per my phone app, I don't have a bubble level

2) The turntable is a new AT LP120 [Emphasis added] , recently serviced by AT. Will try on a Technics SL-D3 when I get home ...

That may be your answer. If you search this forum for posts on the Audio-Technica AT-120LP's anti-skate, you'll find numerous complaints that the anti-skate on this model is poorly calibrated. The typical complaint is that the system applies too little compensation or none at all.

 

[iLUVanalog]

That may be your answer. If you search this forum for posts on the Audio-Technica AT-120LP's anti-skate, you'll find numerous complaints that the anti-skate on this model is poorly calibrated. The typical complaint is that the system applies too little compensation or none at all.

The Doc is right on this point...in which case a blank/groove-less LP would actually help. Set the AS to the same value of the VTF. With the turntable spinning, slowly lower the arm onto the groove-less side, slowly turn the AS dial (clockwise first to increase AS) to see if anything happens...hopefully something will (the arm will move). If the arm moves toward the edge when you increase the AS, and moves toward the label when you decrease the AS, the AS is working. If nothing happens when you increase the AS, or if the arm moves toward the label even when you have the AS set at max, something is definitely wrong. The Doc raises a valid point about other's AT120 tables (PL120 and LP120) having wonky AS dials. I have had no problem with mine. But again, in this situation the groove-less LP will help you check and make sure the AS is working.

 

[vmartell]

Thanks for all the help

Will try to address everything that have been asked/suggested. The one piece of data I forgot to provide is cartridge, relevant to this experiment

1) Anti-skate seems to be working - with an AT120E, like I mentioned, needed to dial AS all the way up. Reducing force let the cart go, augmenting made the cart hold. So it seems to be working even if inaccurate

2) It occurred to me to change cart to an m97xe - now AS works a bit more accurately - the VTF holds the cart at around one tick higher that VTF.

That said, went back to the AT120E and adjusted by ear - best results following above advice at around 2.5 ticks higher than VTF which is still WAY less than maximum.

Thanks for the advice - it worked great.

V