Anti-Skate

[Deanothfc]

Im new to owning turntables and have recently purchased an entry level AT-120XUSB (due to budget). I have upgraded the cart to a VM95ML.
I have checked the alignment using AT protractor and everything is spot on accurate.

The question i have is to do with anti-skate. I have measured my tone arm tracking force as 2g as recommended by AT for this cartridge.
However the specs tell me to set the anti skate the same as tracking force, ie 2.

Upon checking this on the long run out section dead wax of a record, the tonearm races to the inner very fast. To achieve a slow inner direction at the centre of the record( thats how long the dead wax section is) i need to dial down the anti skate to just below 1.

This then makes the tone arm pull slowly outwards on the inner section of the dead wax.

I dont want to damage my records plus get the best sound quality available out of the cartridge.

Any thoughts from experienced users would be great, also anyone have one of these turntables like to comment if they experienced the same thing would be great.

TIA

 

[Montycat]

Have a good look at the cantilever on the cartridge from the front while it is in the groove and see if there is deflection one way or the other. Check it near the outside, the center and end of the record to see how it sits. Adjust the antiskate to get the cantilever as close to straight up and down as you can.

A fast or slow runout to me seems like a characteristic of the record. The stylus follows the groove (and there is only one) and it can't go faster or slower because of skating force, only by virtue of the rpm (33 or 45) or the tightness of the spiral in the deadwax section. Some move quickly (tight spiral) or more slowly (gradual spiral). Antiskate adjustment can't change this.

Having antiskate set to 1 or less with VTF of 2 is not at all unusual.

 

[Hajidub]

Though many will not agree with Monty on adjusting by way of the cantilever deflection, this is the method I've used for many decades. View for deflection often, it'll give you a good idea as deflection will usually display over time. Unless your Anti-skate is off by a ridiculous amount for an extended period, no harm should come to the cantilever of the cartridge (and should be correctable). High anti-skate should make your cantilever skew left of center, when viewed from the front, right if skate is too low.

 

[Deanothfc]

Have a good look at the cantilever on the cartridge from the front while it is in the groove and see if there is deflection one way or the other. Check it near the outside, the center and end of the record to see how it sits. Adjust the antiskate to get the cantilever as close to straight up and down as you can.

A fast or slow runout to me seems like a characteristic of the record. The stylus follows the groove (and there is only one) and it can't go faster or slower because of skating force, only by virtue of the rpm (33 or 45) or the tightness of the spiral in the deadwax section. Some move quickly (tight spiral) or more slowly (gradual spiral). Antiskate adjustment can't change this.

Having antiskate set to 1 or less with VTF of 2 is not at all unusual.

Thanks for commenting, I have attached photos of the cantilever at outer, centre and inner positions, my eyes aren’t what they used to be, but stylus looks pretty straight up and down, thoughts?

Yeah with the run out, what I’m seeing though, is the tone arm is moving outwards! Isn’t it to be the same as the middle of the record, ie slowly travels inwards?
I don’t understand why it’s not lol.

I’m glad that the anti skate dial being half of what AT state is a normal thing however, I was worried mine was faulty.

 

[Deanothfc]

Though many will not agree with Monty on adjusting by way of the cantilever deflection, this is the method I've used for many decades. View for deflection often, it'll give you a good idea as deflection will usually display over time. Unless your Anti-skate is off by a ridiculous amount for an extended period, no harm should come to the cantilever of the cartridge (and should be correctable). High anti-skate should make your cantilever skew left of center, when viewed from the front, right if skate is too low.

Thank you, it’s seem a very sensible way of checking it from a layman’s point of view. A lot less complicated than some of the forums I’ve read on the subject lol.
I’ve posted some pics, I’d appreciate it if you gave me your thoughts, like I mentioned to Monty, my eyes are not as good as they used to be, my ears as well come to think of it. At 61 I think my best listening days are beyond me lol

 

[Hajidub]

Thank you, it’s seem a very sensible way of checking it from a layman’s point of view. A lot less complicated than some of the forums I’ve read on the subject lol.
I’ve posted some pics, I’d appreciate it if you gave me your thoughts, like I mentioned to Monty, my eyes are not as good as they used to be, my ears as well come to think of it. At 61 I think my best listening days are beyond me lol

Cantilever looks skewed to the right, more antiskate required. Dean if I may also recommend a cartridge alignment tool (I'll post a link to one I use), they're pretty cheap. It'll help setup cartridge overhang, alignment, etc.....just for piece of mind.

Amazon.com: Acrylic Turntable Mat Cartridge Alignment Protractor Phonograph Cartridge Alignment Tool Anti Slip LP Record Calibration Plate for Turntable Accessories : Office Products

Buy Acrylic Turntable Mat Cartridge Alignment Protractor Phonograph Cartridge Alignment Tool Anti Slip LP Record Calibration Plate for Turntable Accessories: Protractors - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

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<------link

 

[Deanothfc]

Cantilever looks skewed to the right, more antiskate required. Dean if I may also recommend a cartridge alignment tool (I'll post a link to one I use), they're pretty cheap. It'll help setup cartridge overhang, alignment, etc.....just for piece of mind.

Amazon.com: Acrylic Turntable Mat Cartridge Alignment Protractor Phonograph Cartridge Alignment Tool Anti Slip LP Record Calibration Plate for Turntable Accessories : Office Products

Buy Acrylic Turntable Mat Cartridge Alignment Protractor Phonograph Cartridge Alignment Tool Anti Slip LP Record Calibration Plate for Turntable Accessories: Protractors - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

<------link

Thank you Hajidub, screwed to the right you say? So stylus does look like it is a bit off centre to the left now you mention it. So increase antiskate gradually until dead centre?

I do have an AT alignment protractor specific to this model, and a couple of others.
Are these not accurate? I did set the alignment and overhang using this and got it spot on I think, I was a bit pedantic over it lol.

Thank you and I will check out the link

 

[Deanothfc]

Cantilever looks skewed to the right, more antiskate required. Dean if I may also recommend a cartridge alignment tool (I'll post a link to one I use), they're pretty cheap. It'll help setup cartridge overhang, alignment, etc.....just for piece of mind.

Amazon.com: Acrylic Turntable Mat Cartridge Alignment Protractor Phonograph Cartridge Alignment Tool Anti Slip LP Record Calibration Plate for Turntable Accessories : Office Products

Buy Acrylic Turntable Mat Cartridge Alignment Protractor Phonograph Cartridge Alignment Tool Anti Slip LP Record Calibration Plate for Turntable Accessories: Protractors - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

<------link

lol as it happens I have just ordered one of these about an hour ago but from Australia, same product off of eBay. I like it because it tests Anti-Skate like a blank vinyl. Whether that’s accurate or not, it must give you a ball park to go off of.

I also tried adjusting the anti skate to align the cartridge, went up past 2 and it didn’t really move, so I took a photo of the cartridge in the air, it appears that the stylus is positioned slightly off centre. It’s a brand new stylus, literally only had 4 or five hours of use

 

[Deanothfc]

 

[Hajidub]

Thank you Hajidub, screwed to the right you say? So stylus does look like it is a bit off centre to the left now you mention it. So increase antiskate gradually until dead centre?

I do have an AT alignment protractor specific to this model, and a couple of others.
Are these not accurate? I did set the alignment and overhang using this and got it spot on I think, I was a bit pedantic over it lol.

Thank you and I will check out the link

Looks right to me in the pic, I guess left if you're looking from the point of view of the stylus. Adjusting the skate won't move the cantilever immediately, it has to work it's way over the course of time.

View attachment 3176624

lol as it happens I have just ordered one of these about an hour ago but from Australia, same product off of eBay. I like it because it tests Anti-Skate like a blank vinyl. Whether that’s accurate or not, it must give you a ball park to go off of.

I also tried adjusting the anti skate to align the cartridge, went up past 2 and it didn’t really move, so I took a photo of the cartridge in the air, it appears that the stylus is positioned slightly off centre. It’s a brand new stylus, literally only had 4 or five hours of use

Ohno, the one you have is perfect!

 

[Deanothfc]

Looks right to me in the pic, I guess left if you're looking from the point of view of the stylus. Adjusting the skate won't move the cantilever immediately, it has to work it's way over the course of time.


Ohno, the one you have is perfect!

Ah I see, it will move over given time, got it.
Yeah the protractor I ordered is vinyl so doubles as an anti skate tool. My AT protractor is just card

 

[cgallery]

The OP's A-S mechanism seems to increase force as the value is reduced from 2 to 1 on the dial?

 

[EWarrior]

lol as it happens I have just ordered one of these about an hour ago but from Australia, same product off of eBay. I like it because it tests Anti-Skate like a blank vinyl. Whether that’s accurate or not, it must give you a ball park to go off of.

Why must it?
You're using a microline stylus, which has large contact patches that will sit on the groove walls. When you test it on a blank vinyl, only the small tip of the stylus will come into contact with the test record. I don't think that's comparable.

The OP's A-S mechanism seems to increase force as the value is reduced from 2 to 1 on the dial?

Yes, that can't be right.

Upon checking this on the long run out section dead wax of a record, the tonearm races to the inner very fast. To achieve a slow inner direction at the centre of the record( thats how long the dead wax section is) i need to dial down the anti skate to just below 1.

Skating force pulls the tonarm towards the spindle, anti skate is pulling in the opposite direction. To slow it down you would have to increase anti skate.

 

[Deanothfc]

Why must it?
You're using a microline stylus, which has large contact patches that will sit on the groove walls. When you test it on a blank vinyl, only the small tip of the stylus will come into contact with the test record. I don't think that's comparable.



Yes, that can't be right.



Skating force pulls the tonarm towards the spindle, anti skate is pulling in the opposite direction. To slow it down you would have to increase anti skate.

This is what is confusing me and the myriad of info on anti-skate and how to calibrate.
There are people who swear buy the blank vinyl method, the test record that uses the blank vinyl section. The soundsmith method, and just as many that think it’s BS.
I don’t have an SPL, or mono record, or oscilloscope to set anti skate how it would appear it needs to be set up.
I can’t detect any distortion when AS set to 1 or 2! Volume seems the same from both speakers on both settings.

All I know is, if I set the AS to be the same as the VTF, when I put the tone arm on the dead wax it skates very fast to the record label, I have to lower the skate to .9 for it to move slowly on the dead wax. I don’t know any other way of setting AS. Apart from the visual method mentioned in this thread, which is why I started this thread.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

This is what is confusing me and the myriad of info on anti-skate and how to calibrate.
There are people who swear buy the blank vinyl method, the test record that uses the blank vinyl section. The soundsmith method, and just as many that think it’s BS.
I don’t have an SPL, or mono record, or oscilloscope to set anti skate how it would appear it needs to be set up.
I can’t detect any distortion when AS set to 1 or 2! Volume seems the same from both speakers on both settings.

All I know is, if I set the AS to be the same as the VTF, when I put the tone arm on the dead wax it skates very fast to the record label, I have to lower the skate to .9 for it to move slowly on the dead wax. I don’t know any other way of setting AS. Apart from the visual method mentioned in this thread, which is why I started this thread.

Don't sweat the petty stuff pet the sweaty stuff.

The loveable AR XA has no anti-skate, go figure eh.

 

[jrtrent]

This is what is confusing me and the myriad of info on anti-skate and how to calibrate.
There are people who swear buy the blank vinyl method, the test record that uses the blank vinyl section. The soundsmith method, and just as many that think it’s BS.
I don’t have an SPL, or mono record, or oscilloscope to set anti skate how it would appear it needs to be set up.
I can’t detect any distortion when AS set to 1 or 2! Volume seems the same from both speakers on both settings.

All I know is, if I set the AS to be the same as the VTF, when I put the tone arm on the dead wax it skates very fast to the record label, I have to lower the skate to .9 for it to move slowly on the dead wax. I don’t know any other way of setting AS. Apart from the visual method mentioned in this thread, which is why I started this thread.

Very odd with the antiskate control seeming to work the opposite of what it should. If you zero balance the arm so it floats above the record, does an antiskate setting of zero move the arm out to the tonearm rest faster than setting it to 2 or higher? I suppose it doesn't matter as long as the dial lets you find a setting you're happy with.

My LP120XUSB had a rather strong antiskate spring, and with the arm floating zero-balanced an antiskate setting of zero still moved it some toward the rest, but it really zipped along at higher settings, as expected. The Soundsmith method had me setting antiskate just below 1 on the dial for the 2.3 grams vtf I was using with a Sumiko Oyster cartridge. That combo sounded great to me.

 

[Blackdog61]

Don't sweat the petty stuff pet the sweaty stuff.

The loveable AR XA has no anti-skate, go figure eh.

None of the arms on my three turntables has it.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

None of the arms on my three turntables has it.

As many of my cartridges are high compliance even if anti-skate is present it's often set at its lowest setting. I have six tables.

 

[Tetrack]

I was looking at the AT-LP5 yesterday and was sure there was a mention of issues with this. Quick google search seems to confirm.

 

[lini]

(...) so I took a photo of the cartridge in the air, it appears that the stylus is positioned slightly off centre. It’s a brand new stylus, literally only had 4 or five hours of use (...)

Might make sense to remove the headshell, so you can inspect the cartridge/needle from the bottom. Because sometimes it happens, that the cantilever already has a slight offset to the side (relative to the length axis of the cartridge/needle) rather than that it would be pointing sideways.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini