Any experience with LP Gear's P-mount NSS Nude Schwarz styli?

[flavio81]

And so many genuine-AT VMNxx stylus options that can cross over to the 112 body? Way cool, opens up lots of possibilities.

Do you know of P-mount cartridges from other manufacturers (e.g., Stanton, Pickering, Shure, Ortofon) that can be frankensteined?

Of course!

Ortofon has the TM cartridge body, that's like an OM but in P- mount, so it can use any Stylus OM.
Also the OMP, OM in P-mount

Stanton/Pickering have a line of pickups that are essentially the pickering v15 in p-mount. They have an integrated weight to raise the VTF. I think i've seen today on ebay the XSV cartrridge body (more desirable) on p-mount too.

Shure has so, so many p-mount bodies that are similar (in dimensions) to the Shure M92E. These can mount stylus from the M97xE, V15RS, V15Vx (with X), and many many other shure cartridges.

But i'm more of an audio-technica fan.

 

[alexclark423]

I'm not sure the ML rides much lower in the groove.

IMHO, the beauty of the ML stylus is the slight and constant side radius. This not only performs better, but it cleans as it plays.

View attachment 3094738

Can you please explain - how it cleans as it plays?

 

[cgallery]

Can you please explain - how it cleans as it plays?

Well all styli clean as they play, the MicroLine are just better at it because they more closely approximate the shape of the groove, their profile doesn't really change until they're worn out, and that profile fits into the smallest modulations even at the inner groove.

One of my hobbies is woodworking. If I have a groove to sand, I find a block of wood that matches the shape, wrap some sandpaper around it, and use this to sand the groove in the wood.

The stylus does the same thing.

 

[faustus]

One thing to keep in mind, is that most of the pivoted arms have fixed anti-skating.

Adding .5 to the tracking force may increase the skating force beyond any capability to compensate for this.

You could try decreasing tracking force by .25g on many arms, and get to 1.5g (1g set on the arm and .5g extra weight for the stylus grip). But this can change the character of the HF response on the VMN40ML.

The linear tracking arms don't suffer any skating forces so the VMN40ML on one of these works great. Listening to one now.

Thank you for pointing out the anti-skating consideration. Another instance of "nothing good comes for free."

And an interesting thought wrt decreasing the VTF to keep the arm happier, versus the other approach of increasing VTF to make the cart/stylus happy.

Then there's the "split the difference" approach, leave VTF at 1.25g. The cart/stylus will be feeling ~1.75g, .25 less than ideal, and the arm will be wrestling with ~6.25g, .25g more than ideal wrt anti-skating.

So then, the question becomes which of the items, cart/stylus or arm/anti-skating, is more sensitive to a .25g delta from ideal on a non-linear tracking P-mount tt?

 

[flavio81]

TSo then, the question becomes which of the items, cart/stylus or arm/anti-skating, is more sensitive to a .25g delta from ideal on a non-linear tracking P-mount tt?

The most important thing is the VTF in #1.

Antiskating is always an approximation.

 

[cgallery]

Thank you for pointing out the anti-skating consideration. Another instance of "nothing good comes for free."

And an interesting thought wrt decreasing the VTF to keep the arm happier, versus the other approach of increasing VTF to make the cart/stylus happy.

Then there's the "split the difference" approach, leave VTF at 1.25g. The cart/stylus will be feeling ~1.75g, .25 less than ideal, and the arm will be wrestling with ~6.25g, .25g more than ideal wrt anti-skating.

So then, the question becomes which of the items, cart/stylus or arm/anti-skating, is more sensitive to a .25g delta from ideal on a non-linear tracking P-mount tt?

Well the key is to find a VTF that doesn't cause mistracking, allows the stylus to land at the beginning-of-side w/o tending to skip-forward, and hopefully allows for even stylus wear.

For all I know, the anti-skating spring is a little strong on your turntable and would work great at 1.75g. But I figured I'd bring it up as $200 is significant to many people (sure is to me) so you may want to consider it before proceeding.

I bet you're going to like that Jico SAS. I sort of want to order one.

 

[faustus]

The most important thing is the VTF in #1.

Antiskating is always an approximation.

Well the key is to find a VTF that doesn't cause mistracking, allows the stylus to land at the beginning-of-side w/o tending to skip-forward, and hopefully allows for even stylus wear.

For all I know, the anti-skating spring is a little strong on your turntable and would work great at 1.75g.

Thank you, both, for the advice that VTF is the primary concern.

I figured there would need to be some experimentation with any frankenstein to find the best tracking solution.

... I figured I'd bring it up as $200 is significant to many people (sure is to me) so you may want to consider it before proceeding.

I bet you're going to like that Jico SAS. I sort of want to order one.

Agreed on the $$ consideration. Unfortunately(?), I rationalize audio purchases far too easily (compared to my typically more frugal approach to spending), especially if there is something interesting or advanced from an engineering aspect, such as a hybrid frankenstein cartridge/stylus combo or a ML/MR/SAS tip.

Looking forward to the Jico SAS arrival, have already rationalized the $$$ by telling myself "it's less than a dollar a day for a year and the enjoyment will continue for years." Feels better already, lol.

 

[faustus]

I look forward to a full report.

@cgallery , here's an initial report on the AT3472ML installed onto an AT92e cart: a major improvement over the stock elliptical stylus; better clarity for all frequencies; more depth of content, more musical, greater tonal balance; quick-paced and engaging, not overly bright or forward. I'm very satisfied!

And an initial report on the Jico eps-202ed/SAS/boron installed on a Technics P23 cart: a major improvement over the stock elliptical stylus; very musical, balanced, and clean with natural lows, mids, and highs. Very engaging and extremely satisfying to listen to. The highs and overall balance are sublime!

No complaints, only praise, they both sound great. The at92e/AT3472ML is a good combo that gives commendable results. The P23/Jico SAS is an even better combo, sounds a touch more full, lively, and musical. I'm guessing the P23 cart plays a part in the higher rating, possibly a more solid base to build upon than the at92e.

Thank you for the worthy stylus suggestions!

 

[cgallery]

@cgallery , here's an initial report on the AT3472ML installed onto an AT92e cart: a major improvement over the stock elliptical stylus; better clarity for all frequencies; more depth of content, more musical, greater tonal balance; quick-paced and engaging, not overly bright or forward. I'm very satisfied!

And an initial report on the Jico eps-202ed/SAS/boron installed on a Technics P23 cart: a major improvement over the stock elliptical stylus; very musical, balanced, and clean with natural lows, mids, and highs. Very engaging and extremely satisfying to listen to. The highs and overall balance are sublime!

No complaints, only praise, they both sound great. The at92e/AT3472ML is a good combo that gives commendable results. The P23/Jico SAS is an even better combo, sounds a touch more full, lively, and musical. I'm guessing the P23 cart plays a part in the higher rating, possibly a more solid base to build upon than the at92e.

Thank you for the worthy stylus suggestions!

I was afraid you were gonna tell me you liked the Technics/Jico combo the most, now I'm going to have to get one.

You are really all set now, two great cartridges and styli!

 

[faustus]

I was afraid you were gonna tell me you liked the Technics/Jico combo the most, now I'm going to have to get one.

I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed with the results.

You are really all set now, two great cartridges and styli!

No argument there, an overdue upgrade. One more itch to scratch... frankenstein. @flavio81 really piqued my interest with the at112/vmn40ml combo... feels like forbidden fruit, crossing p-mount cart with standard stylus... gotta try it (even with the vtf vs. a/s concern for my non-linear tt).

 

[faustus]

The AT112EP body (pics i send) is a different, much better body than the AT92E body. That's why i made the frankestein.

@flavio81 , I picked-up an at112ep with stock atn112ep cart. I agree that it sounds better (more depth) than a stock at92e, and that it would be good for a frankenstein. I ordered an ATN120E stylus today (good specs, similar to vmn40ml, but less $$$). Looking forward to assembling and listening to the at112ep/atn120e combo... my AT frankenstein.

Thank you for the suggestion!

 

[flavio81]

@flavio81 , I picked-up an at112ep with stock atn112ep cart. I agree that it sounds better (more depth) than a stock at92e, and that it would be good for a frankenstein. I ordered an ATN120E stylus today (good specs, similar to vmn40ml, but less $$$). Looking forward to assembling and listening to the at112ep/atn120e combo... my AT frankenstein.

Thank you for the suggestion!

You can also cut the AT3472ML needle's plastic body with pliers until it can fit on the AT112EP cartridge body. I have done such frankesteins too -- i have modified an ATVM95ML stylus to fit a AT112EP and/or AT-VM510CB.

However, i wouldn't be surprised if you find that the ATN120E stylus on the AT112EP sounds better than the AT3472ML cartridge! At least in spatial separation of instruments.

The at92e/AT3472ML is a good combo that gives commendable results. The P23/Jico SAS is an even better combo, sounds a touch more full, lively, and musical. I'm guessing the P23 cart plays a part in the higher rating, possibly a more solid base to build upon than the at92e.

The P23 cartridge body is more sophisticated, but the biggest difference is on the boron cantilever of the SAS needle. The needle tip itself is exactly the same (SAS tip = Microline tip).

 

[cgallery]

The P23 cartridge body is more sophisticated, but the biggest difference is on the boron cantilever of the SAS needle. The needle tip itself is exactly the same (SAS tip = Microline tip).

Can you please elaborate on this?

I'm still on the fence on the P23.

 

[faustus]

You can also cut the AT3472ML needle's plastic body with pliers until it can fit on the AT112EP cartridge body.

Great to know, thank you.

However, i wouldn't be surprised if you find that the ATN120E stylus on the AT112EP sounds better than the AT3472ML cartridge! At least in spatial separation of instruments.

I'll report on the results in about a week, after the stylus arrives.

The P23 cartridge body is more sophisticated, but the biggest difference is on the boron cantilever of the SAS needle. The needle tip itself is exactly the same (SAS tip = Microline tip).

Add me to the Boron Cantilever Fan Club.

 

[Jukey44]

That spherical was likely tracking at around 5g.

Exactly! The tracking forces are not given. It's been documented that a conical stylus tracking at less than about 2.5 g causes less record wear (damage) than an elliptical. The reason has to do with the physical phenomenon of "micro-hardness", which is the hardness (or resistance to wear) of a material based on a local applied force. The study is not an easy read but it's based on science, not audiophile conjecture. https://pspatialaudio.com/record_wear.htm

 

[dave99]

I have a Technics SL-QD35, with a P23 cart and an AT-92e cart, and I'm exploring nude conical and nude elliptical styli options for both carts.

The LP Gear website lists several NSS options for my carts:

• EPS24NE, NSS/c LP Gear EPS-24 Upgrade stylus for Panasonic P24 cartridge.
• ATN3472SEN, NSS/E LP GearV3.0 stylus for Audio-Technica ATN3472SE stylus.
• ATN3472NSSC, NSS/c LP Gear upgrade replacement for Audio-Technica ATN3472C ATN81 stylus.

Do any members have experience with any of these NSS styli?

My vinyl collection is a mix of poor to good albums, all picked up second hand, nothing special. They have been cleaned a couple of times (Spin-n-Clean) but lots of surface abuse remains, far from pristine. I have a fairly discerning ear with a preference for tight bass and clean highs.

I welcome your impressions about the NSS performance and your advice about which ones might be a good fit for my situation. Cheers!

I didn’t know these were around so bought 2 of the NSS/e versions for the AT3600 and Shure M95ED. I tested the AT3600 with my linear tracker Mits LT-22 and the M95ED on my Kenwood KD5100. Both were set at 1g. Exceptional separation, luscious lows and crisp undistorted highs. Really nice for the price. I originally bought the LP Gear AT3600 Carbon which is amazing in its own right considering it’s been out forever. The NSS puts it in another league. I have around 25 cartridges from AT (3600/15Sa/20SS/F7/540ml/740ml), ADC (QLM/XLM/ZLM), Stanton(D77/681ees), Pioneer (3MC/4MC) and many others. Too many for sure but I like to dabble and been collecting for years. These NSS/e stylus are as good as any I have. Before spending several hundred dollars it’s worth trying the AT3600/NSSe combo. You’ll be shocked what you hear. It’s crazy good

I have a Technics SL-QD35, with a P23 cart and an AT-92e cart, and I'm exploring nude conical and nude elliptical styli options for both carts.

The LP Gear website lists several NSS options for my carts:

• EPS24NE, NSS/c LP Gear EPS-24 Upgrade stylus for Panasonic P24 cartridge.
• ATN3472SEN, NSS/E LP GearV3.0 stylus for Audio-Technica ATN3472SE stylus.
• ATN3472NSSC, NSS/c LP Gear upgrade replacement for Audio-Technica ATN3472C ATN81 stylus.

Do any members have experience with any of these NSS styli?

My vinyl collection is a mix of poor to good albums, all picked up second hand, nothing special. They have been cleaned a couple of times (Spin-n-Clean) but lots of surface abuse remains, far from pristine. I have a fairly discerning ear with a preference for tight bass and clean highs.

I welcome your impressions about the NSS performance and your advice about which ones might be a good fit for my situation. Cheers!

 

[Jukey44]

I'm not sure the ML rides much lower in the groove.

IMHO, the beauty of the ML stylus is the slight and constant side radius. This not only performs better, but it cleans as it plays.

View attachment 3094738

Hi. Where did you find these awesome pics? I'd love to read more about this testing!

 

[Jukey44]

I didn’t know these were around so bought 2 of the NSS/e versions for the AT3600 and Shure M95ED. I tested the AT3600 with my linear tracker Mits LT-22 and the M95ED on my Kenwood KD5100. Both were set at 1g. Exceptional separation, luscious lows and crisp undistorted highs. Really nice for the price. I originally bought the LP Gear AT3600 Carbon which is amazing in its own right considering it’s been out forever. The NSS puts it in another league. I have around 25 cartridges from AT (3600/15Sa/20SS/F7/540ml/740ml), ADC (QLM/XLM/ZLM), Stanton(D77/681ees), Pioneer (3MC/4MC) and many others. Too many for sure but I like to dabble and been collecting for years. These NSS/e stylus are as good as any I have. Before spending several hundred dollars it’s worth trying the AT3600/NSSe combo. You’ll be shocked what you hear. It’s crazy good View attachment 3129803

I'm also interested in the LP GEAR NSS styli. Your experience has just about convinced me to give one a try. My only hesitation is that most of them don't come with a recommended tracking force, at least nothing is indicated on the website. BTW, a tracking force of 1g seems much too low. I'm really surprised you got such excellent results tracking this lightly.

 

[cgallery]

I'm also interested in the LP GEAR NSS styli. Your experience has just about convinced me to give one a try. My only hesitation is that most of them don't come with a recommended tracking force, at least nothing is indicated on the website. BTW, a tracking force of 1g seems much too low. I'm really surprised you got such excellent results tracking this lightly.

My experience with these inexpensive nude styli is that they need more tracking force than OEM in order to avoid high frequency tracking issues (sibilance, etc.).

For example, a Shure I tried was supposed to tract at 1.25g, but needed about 1.8g to avoid tracking issues. Interestingly, low frequency tracking at 1.25g was superb, passing the 16dB Hi-Fi News test track with ease. It was always the high frequencies that challenged all the inexpensive nudes I tried.

 

[cgallery]

Hi. Where did you find these awesome pics? I'd love to read more about this testing!

I don't recall, they're around at various forums. Try googling "record wear micrograph" and then on "images" to see more.