AR-3 worth buying?
- Thread starter MarSanZ
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Very nice grab. Post pics when you get a chance.
See here for additional info:
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/ar/ar.htm
Do a search, here, also. Plenty of info. In addition, they could probably use new capacitors. Lots of info here on that also.
Enjoy your ARs. True classics.
See here for additional info:
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/ar/ar.htm
Do a search, here, also. Plenty of info. In addition, they could probably use new capacitors. Lots of info here on that also.
Enjoy your ARs. True classics.
joelongwood
No more room at the inn
You got some GREAT speakers there.....make sure the pots (rear controls for tweeter and midrange) are working, as they are usually either not working or intermittent. Cleaning or bypassing involves going inside through the woofer opening. Also, feed them plenty of good, clean power. AR recommended a minimum of 25 watts rms per channel, but they thrive on 100 +.
I've read that there is great synergy between the AR3 and the Sansui 9090db which I see you have, so you might want to try that.
There's also a method developed by onplane, a member here and on the Classic Speaker Pages, to bypass the pots and passively bi-amp the AR3/3a's. I finally got around to trying it last week and the results, to my ears at least, are stunning. It's hard to listen to my other speakers now.
Enjoy!
I've read that there is great synergy between the AR3 and the Sansui 9090db which I see you have, so you might want to try that.
There's also a method developed by onplane, a member here and on the Classic Speaker Pages, to bypass the pots and passively bi-amp the AR3/3a's. I finally got around to trying it last week and the results, to my ears at least, are stunning. It's hard to listen to my other speakers now.
Enjoy!
MarSanZ
Simple Pleasures...
AR-3'sare too sweet!!!
Hey Guys,
I got the AR-3's...actually they are AR-3a's home, the serial numbers are in the 27,000 range. Anyway, joelongwood was right, the cross-overs pots for the highs and mids were intermittent. I played the speakers for about 20 minutes, the sound coming from was very low, I played around with the cross-overs for awhile and behold! The most beautiful sound came from these speakers, truly amazing. For as ugly as they look with the covers off they sound incredible. Definitely a keeper.
I sprayed deoxit on the cross-overs and let them sit overnight, they are now functional. There is a little static emitting from one speaker (woofer) that goes away when I turn down the mids. I looked at the schematic and found that the highs and mids are indirectly connected to sub woofer through the cross-over. If Deoxit does not fix the problem I may have to use the bypass trick! I double checked the woofer and it appeared to be intact.
Anybody know where I can get a set of AR-3a badges or woofers if needed? I will post pics soon.
Thanks.
Hey Guys,
I got the AR-3's...actually they are AR-3a's home, the serial numbers are in the 27,000 range. Anyway, joelongwood was right, the cross-overs pots for the highs and mids were intermittent. I played the speakers for about 20 minutes, the sound coming from was very low, I played around with the cross-overs for awhile and behold! The most beautiful sound came from these speakers, truly amazing. For as ugly as they look with the covers off they sound incredible. Definitely a keeper.
I sprayed deoxit on the cross-overs and let them sit overnight, they are now functional. There is a little static emitting from one speaker (woofer) that goes away when I turn down the mids. I looked at the schematic and found that the highs and mids are indirectly connected to sub woofer through the cross-over. If Deoxit does not fix the problem I may have to use the bypass trick! I double checked the woofer and it appeared to be intact.
Anybody know where I can get a set of AR-3a badges or woofers if needed? I will post pics soon.
Thanks.
joelongwood
No more room at the inn
Even better (IMO, of course). I have both, and the 3a's are definitely more detailed, open, and airy from the upper mids through the top end. But with the passive bi-amping I did with the 3's, they are pretty damned close now.MarSanZ said:
As for woofers, you can get new woofers from A/B Tech, an authorized AR repair shop. However, that doesn't mean the woofers will be the same as those in your speakers......they are just the latest incarnation of the original woofers. And since AR is not even close to being the company it once was, I would be wary, particularly since your rather early serial numbers indicate those are the Alnico magnet woofers........are the surrounds cloth or foam?
http://www.abtechservices.com/
I'd keep my eye on eBay, as singles and pairs come up pretty regularly.
The badges can be purchased from a guy on eBay, vintage-ar, who was an AR tech back in the 70's. He has repro badges that look damned good for about $20 a pair........just e-mail him and he'll give you a price. You don't have to bid and wait for the auction to end.
Here's a link toan auction for 2ax badges......but he has 3a's s well.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ACOUSTIC-RESEAR...ryZ14991QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Hope this helps.......and enjoy. You might find, as I have, that a lot of other speakers, even well regarded ones, sound rather shrill and harsh after extended listening sessions with your smoooooth AR's.
onplane
What! No Wake???
MarSanZ said:
Joelongwood, has it absolutely correct. If you want to push these speakers to get the ultimate sound, passive bi-amping does ... wonders!
Passive bi-amping, however, does require an additional low power amp to power the mids/tweeters along with a decent amp (100 wpc and UP) to power the woofer.
Whether you go the passive bi-amping route or power with a single amp, those blasted pots cause all kinds of problems. To achieve a near flat frequency response on modern media, the low cost, permanent solution is:
1. Totally by-pass the tweeter pot by cutting the leads to the pot wiper and to the terminal at the top of the pot. Twist these leads together, solder, cover with a wire nut and then bury in the fiberglass blankets.
2. CUT the wiper lead on the mid pot and solder it to the lead at the top of the pot (terminal where the coil is connected) - you can also by-pass like we do for the tweeter IF YOU PLAN TO BI-AMP! (Never simply "jump" the wiper to the top of the pot, as this could take out your amp!)
People just don’t realize how just a little bit of corrosion impacts those sensitive drivers (mid & tweeter). While the power in music exists in the lowest frequencies, all of the information is contained in the mid and high frequencies. This is where music gets its very life and just trace amounts of corrosion … “dulls” everything.
Even if you spend an enormous amount of time cleaning and plating the pot wipers, once those dissimilar metals are back in the presence of current and heat, … they’ll just start corroding all over again. This corrosion causes resistance, where NONE was ever intended.
Regards,
Jerry
MarSanZ
Simple Pleasures...
AR-3a's
Joe,
Thanks for the info, Larry at Vintage AR has been in touch with me. Regarding the surrounds, they are cloth and seem to be damage free, the static I hear in one of them goes away when tuning out the mids and highs, I may not have a choice but to bypass the cross-over. What is the concern with the Alnico magnets? These speaker easily weigh over 60 lbs which make me think they are Alnico. I found a picture of the differences between the two, I thought the bigger the magnet the better the speaker?????
What color were the original grilles, mine are cloth, tannish in color and they kinda have a burlap feel to them. The ones Larry is selling at Vintage AR appear to be closer to white in the color spectrum.
Thanks for your help.
Joe,
Thanks for the info, Larry at Vintage AR has been in touch with me. Regarding the surrounds, they are cloth and seem to be damage free, the static I hear in one of them goes away when tuning out the mids and highs, I may not have a choice but to bypass the cross-over. What is the concern with the Alnico magnets? These speaker easily weigh over 60 lbs which make me think they are Alnico. I found a picture of the differences between the two, I thought the bigger the magnet the better the speaker?????
What color were the original grilles, mine are cloth, tannish in color and they kinda have a burlap feel to them. The ones Larry is selling at Vintage AR appear to be closer to white in the color spectrum.
Thanks for your help.
joelongwood
No more room at the inn
MarSanZ said:
The original grill cloth was a slightly off-white linen. There's an entire thread over at the Classic Speaker Pages devoted to AR grill cloth and what is available today. Carl of Carl's Speakers did an entire study of the physical and acoustic properties of AR grill cloth, both original and what is available today.
My only concern regarding the Alnico woofers was that you would not be able to duplicate them by getting the new AR factory replacement part from A-B Tech. And I'm pretty sure that your early, cloth surround woofers are MUCH better than the newer ones.
As for a bigger magnet always yielding a better speaker, I recently found out that was not the case. Back in the 9O's I foolishly replaced my AR5 woofers with an AR factory replacement, and disposed of the originals. But, since I've gotten into this vintage stuff in a big way, I wanted to restore them to their former glory. So after much searching and waiting, I came across an original pair of AR5 woofers from 1969, which is the year I bought mine. When I got the woofers and compared them physically with the newer woofers, I was shocked to find that the originals weighed considerably less. But after I put them in the cabinets and hooked them up, the bass was much, much better.....deeper and tighter. So much for the weight factor.....at least in this case.
MarSanZ:
Cool score. I just restored a "basket case" pair of AR-2axs, so I'm pretty well up on what you're about to get into. The results were so good that I'm now very, very interested in finding a pair of 3as.
First and foremost, I'd be concerned with whether the speakers are air-tight. AR's acoustic suspension depends on this. While your early cloth-surround woofers won't deteriorate like foam ones, they can still need a re-doping after all these years. Perhaps someone can chime in on whether ARs are prone to need resealing. There's lots of info here on how to do it, if need be.
Second, you're going to have to get a cheap soldering iron and get familiar with it if you haven't already. Removing and resoldering components in junk stereo equipment is great practice.
Once you decide to do some work on the crossover, draw yourself a detailed diagram of how everything's wired. You'll certainly want to replace the capacitors, using some decent quality caps poly or film caps like you'd find at Parts Express.
You'll also have to decide what, if any, of onplane's "Jerry-rigging" modifications you want to undertake. You may decide to take the tweeter's potentiometer out of the crossover entirely. You'll gain a much need 1 db in the high range doing this. The midrange pots have to stay in the crossover, though, or the mids tend to be too bright. Onplane recommends opening them up and soldering them permanently into the "full" position to avoid future problems.
You could also do what I did, and simply leave both old potentiometers in, but open them and carefully clean all the corrosion off with a dremel tool and a wire wheel. New potentiometers would be a great solution, but proper replacements are cost prohibitive and somewhat difficult to track down.
There's a ton of posts here that expand on everything I just said if you search around. Don't hesitate to message me if you need help. Congrats and enjoy one of the all-time classics.
Cool score. I just restored a "basket case" pair of AR-2axs, so I'm pretty well up on what you're about to get into. The results were so good that I'm now very, very interested in finding a pair of 3as.
First and foremost, I'd be concerned with whether the speakers are air-tight. AR's acoustic suspension depends on this. While your early cloth-surround woofers won't deteriorate like foam ones, they can still need a re-doping after all these years. Perhaps someone can chime in on whether ARs are prone to need resealing. There's lots of info here on how to do it, if need be.
Second, you're going to have to get a cheap soldering iron and get familiar with it if you haven't already. Removing and resoldering components in junk stereo equipment is great practice.
Once you decide to do some work on the crossover, draw yourself a detailed diagram of how everything's wired. You'll certainly want to replace the capacitors, using some decent quality caps poly or film caps like you'd find at Parts Express.
You'll also have to decide what, if any, of onplane's "Jerry-rigging" modifications you want to undertake. You may decide to take the tweeter's potentiometer out of the crossover entirely. You'll gain a much need 1 db in the high range doing this. The midrange pots have to stay in the crossover, though, or the mids tend to be too bright. Onplane recommends opening them up and soldering them permanently into the "full" position to avoid future problems.
You could also do what I did, and simply leave both old potentiometers in, but open them and carefully clean all the corrosion off with a dremel tool and a wire wheel. New potentiometers would be a great solution, but proper replacements are cost prohibitive and somewhat difficult to track down.
There's a ton of posts here that expand on everything I just said if you search around. Don't hesitate to message me if you need help. Congrats and enjoy one of the all-time classics.
shacky
Addicted Member
My story is similar to Joe's. Bought a pair of really nice shape AR 2AX's - older model. re-capped, re-sealed surrounds, cleaned up pots, and they sound wonderful. Having listened to a lot of newer speakers, I wasn't blown away at first. But after hours of tweaking and listening I will never get rid of these babies.
And I'm starting a refurb pair of 3a's. Found some 16 ohm pots to use and had foam surrounds replaced. I'm not in any rush though - my 2AX's sound wonerful and I want to take my time.
Good luck with yours.
And I'm starting a refurb pair of 3a's. Found some 16 ohm pots to use and had foam surrounds replaced. I'm not in any rush though - my 2AX's sound wonerful and I want to take my time.
Good luck with yours.
MarSanZ
Simple Pleasures...
Thanks Joe,winters860 said:
What about the potentiometers from A/B Tech? Does anyone on AK sell them. I really want to do the right things for these speakers, I just can't believe how well they sound. I am blown away by the sound they put out.
To let the cat out of the bag, I decided to check out the Salvation Army and Goodwill this past Saturday for some vinyl and got these AR-3a's at Goodwill....are you ready for this...$20 for the set! I guess you can say I was very LUCKY!!!! The cabs are in excellent condition...pics coming soon.
So...this is what I have so far:
1. Re-dope surrounds. Where do I begin? Is this a messy and difficult process?
2. Recap - purchase from Parts Express, what about from Vintage AR on eBay or A/B Tech. What type for each surround?
3. Replace potentiometers or "jerry-rig" onplane style or follow your path (Joe). Which is the best way to go to get the ultimate sound?
Thanks a Million.
shacky
Addicted Member
You can try Leeds for the pots. I bought 8 - enough to do my 3a's and upgrade my 2AX's next time I open them. Prices were suppose to go up. But with what you paid for your 3a's seems like it's worth the investment. Also - Carl's Custom Classic Speakers has the correct attenuators for a little more. Carl also stocks the correct value caps and can set you up with everything you need including linen.
http://www.leedselect.com/parts-resistors.html#rheostats
I chose to go the original route with working attenuators - just my choice.
http://www.leedselect.com/parts-resistors.html#rheostats
I chose to go the original route with working attenuators - just my choice.
onplane
What! No Wake???
AR-3a's pretty much have foam surrounds. I wasn't aware that cloth surrounds were available in the 3a's.
In any event, some people recommend Armor All Original Protectant, others recommend Elmer's rubber cement and finally some say a 50% blend of water and silicone sealant works best. The whole idea is LIGHT coatings that stick, fill the voids and add NO stiffness.
If you increase the stiffness or add significant weight, you'll impact the driver's performance.
Regards,
Jerry
PS: As for "Jerry-rigging" what you are doing is transferring the function of the power dissipating pots back to the volume controls on the two amps. It's more complicated than that as each amp has a much easier job to do once you split the xover network. So with easier tasks to do, the amps just do a better job. What "Jerry-rigging" allows you to do is try passive bi-amping WITHOUT modifying the speaker exterior connections. If you don't like the sound, you merely replace the strap between 2 and "T" and return to the single amp configuration.
In any event, some people recommend Armor All Original Protectant, others recommend Elmer's rubber cement and finally some say a 50% blend of water and silicone sealant works best. The whole idea is LIGHT coatings that stick, fill the voids and add NO stiffness.
If you increase the stiffness or add significant weight, you'll impact the driver's performance.
Regards,
Jerry
PS: As for "Jerry-rigging" what you are doing is transferring the function of the power dissipating pots back to the volume controls on the two amps. It's more complicated than that as each amp has a much easier job to do once you split the xover network. So with easier tasks to do, the amps just do a better job. What "Jerry-rigging" allows you to do is try passive bi-amping WITHOUT modifying the speaker exterior connections. If you don't like the sound, you merely replace the strap between 2 and "T" and return to the single amp configuration.
Eunomians
Diggin' 4 LP's Worldwide
Enjoy your restoration project. Take your time! Use the best quality parts for the job.
Jerry, for the record, here are pics of my AR-3a with earlier cloth surround woofers with the original damping foam strip.
These AR-3a's also happen to have the later-style rear-wired mids and tweets.
Very unusual, I have yet to come across another pair like this one.
They are an "in-between" model. I figured that you might find this interesting.
Cheers
Jerry, for the record, here are pics of my AR-3a with earlier cloth surround woofers with the original damping foam strip.
These AR-3a's also happen to have the later-style rear-wired mids and tweets.
Very unusual, I have yet to come across another pair like this one.
They are an "in-between" model. I figured that you might find this interesting.
Cheers
Eunomians
Diggin' 4 LP's Worldwide
MarSanZ:
Wow, those look like they are in great shape. Very nice score!
They are the early 3a version with the cloth surrounds and front-wired mids/tweets. I believe that the surround color is simply due to the material used (it is almost like leather). And I notice that your woofers do not have the extra damping foam ring. There are 3 types of AR-3a woofers (not including 80s AR replacement woofers): cloth surrounds, cloth surrounds with foam damping ring, foam surrounds. There were 2 types of mids/tweets: backwired and frontwired. Backwired were 99% of the time utilized with foam surround AR-3a units.
Jerry: Yes, the rusty color is indeed the cloth material color. Perhaps a redope is in order, despite the material being nice, pliable and overall "healthy".
Best regards my fellow 3a collectors!
Wow, those look like they are in great shape. Very nice score!
They are the early 3a version with the cloth surrounds and front-wired mids/tweets. I believe that the surround color is simply due to the material used (it is almost like leather). And I notice that your woofers do not have the extra damping foam ring. There are 3 types of AR-3a woofers (not including 80s AR replacement woofers): cloth surrounds, cloth surrounds with foam damping ring, foam surrounds. There were 2 types of mids/tweets: backwired and frontwired. Backwired were 99% of the time utilized with foam surround AR-3a units.
Jerry: Yes, the rusty color is indeed the cloth material color. Perhaps a redope is in order, despite the material being nice, pliable and overall "healthy".
Best regards my fellow 3a collectors!
They're beauts, MarSanZ!