AR series 3a

[ozmoid]

Oz, is Mad Momma's mud sling still a going concern?

WELL Blow me down with a feather! Jesse, you just knocked my socks off, man - I live about 2 miles from Mad Momma's, and my family's business is just across Hwy. 70, Buckner Plumbing (My sister runs it, I bailed out years ago...).

Mad Momma's flooded out a few years ago, and the mud is slung no more. :tears:

Now come clean and tell me how you know about Mad Momma's, and when you'll be up for a visit - we'll put an extra possum on to boil! :stupid:

Todd

 

[doctorbongo]

Wow! So that's what they look like behind all of the great sound!!!

 

[sleddogman]

I'm in the process of refurbishing a pair or AR-3a's for a friend. Larry Lagace in Colonie, NY (or "Vinatge-AR" on eBay), carries nice re-foam kits with shims, new dust caps, and proper glue for $19.50. If Larry doesn't have them listed for auction, send him an email at Ljlagace@aol.com and Sue, his delightful assistant, is at ARassistant@aol.com

He also has the speaker putty to reseal the woofers into the cabinets, plus stuff like new L-pad pots, re-capping kits, damn near perfect replacement grille cloth, replacement grille frames, logo badges, etc.

Larry was a long time AR tech before retiring and suggested using rubbing alcohol to remove the cloth surround glue/material from the cones and frames. Worked like a charm for me.

As folks have said, these speakers are astounding and I can see why my friend has hung on to his AR-3a's for all these years. If I'm ever fortunate enough to stumble across a pair like some have, I'll hang on to them too... :thmbsp:

 

[Jesse Garron]

Seriously, Todd - who doesn't know about Mad Momma's? And how does a mud bog flood?

I went there years ago - a buddy has a cabin in Old Fort near a park. Can't remember the name of the road... Neat place - Black Mountain was pretty cool... crunchy, but cool.


PS: Have you ever heard the old story of an Old Fort girl who escaped from the law by cutting her hair and pretending she was a male?

"Frankie cut her haaaaair!"

 

[fotno]

Oz, is Mad Momma's mud sling still a going concern?

If you know about Mad Mama's, you go deep into McDowell County activities my friend!

Ozmoid isn't the only AKer who lives near Marion...

Buzzardtown is an alternate name for Glenwood.

 

[ozmoid]

And how does a mud bog flood?

The good old Catawba River got a bit high 2 years ago - the spectator area was under about 15-20' of water. Just never got back off the ground after the that.

However, the 1/2 a truck they mounted to poles out by the road for a sign is still there...

 

[fotno]

However, the 1/2 a truck they mounted to poles out by the road for a sign is still there...

Sho' nuf' is...

 

[Jesse Garron]

Hi All - quick update...

I wimped out and decided to take them to a local shop... I figured I would end up buying $50-$100 in parts and end up destroying the speakers. I enjoy DIY, but this isn't my ballywick. Also they were very familiar with this speaker...

Anyway, I'm having them reconed, bypassing attenuators, and having everything tested & cleaned. They can restore the attenuators, but it sounds like most folks here are just bypassing them - correct? The cones are sketchy and apparently oem (new run) replacements are still available.

Tweeters and midranges turned out OK.

The cabinets, however, I want to do myself. Finish is faded ut the wood isn't dinged too bady. I guess I'll search for 'gentle' restoration tips for the cabinets...

 

[ozmoid]

They can restore the attenuators, but it sounds like most folks here are just bypassing them - correct?

Some are, mostly because it has been recently suggested as a cheap way out.

Removing the rheostats will change your crossover points, and remove your ability to balance the upper drivers with the woofer and each other. I have tried the 2ax with the pots by-passed, and find them harsh on the top end - one of the things that is most attractive to my ear about the AR's is Low Listener Fatigue - and the by-passed pots made these a more fatiguing speaker to my ear. I would describe the effect as loss of balance and detail. I do not have a pair of 3a to experiment with.

Even with an L-pad replacement (use the Parts Express 8 ohm, they're about $3 each) you can more closely replicate the original pot than by simply bypassing. The PE L-pad will not change the ohm rating the amp sees, and you can meter the pot after it's installed to find the target setting that replicates the original rheostat. You're looking for 15.7 ohms across terminals 1 and 3 with the driver attached.

The L-pad is not a duplicate to the rheostat, and wide adjustment off that target will change the voice of the driver. At full "on", I don't care for the sound of the L-pad either, even though it is still not as harsh as removing the controls altogether.

onplane has a plan for bi-amping the speakers with the pots removed, and I think this may yield better results, as you will still retain control over the mids/highs and the woofer separately.

The bottom line is YOUR EARS - if it sounds good to you, no one else matters.

 

[Jesse Garron]

Hmm, I'll have to check back with them to see if the rheostats would be replaced or rebuilt... Are there replacement parts for this still available?

Or is just a matter of cleaning up the innards and replacing the old caps?

 

[onplane]

Hi All - quick update...

They can restore the attenuators, but it sounds like most folks here are just bypassing them - correct?

Jesse, like ozmoid said, you have a few options. I would NOT by-pass the mid pot (I did that for a while and am no longer). Problem is really with the AR-3a tweeter. Of all of the drivers in the 3a, the tweeter is really marginal by modern standards. By comparison, the mid-driver and woofer are simply outstanding drivers even 40 years later!

Problem with the tweeter is the volume of it's output. Here you really do want to by-pass the tweeter pot COMPLETELY. You do this to get as much sound as you can out of the tweeter.

For the mid-driver, I would by-pass the WIPER. That is, solder the lead going to the wiper to the top of the pot. This is the same as setting the mid-pot to it's maximum position 40 years ago before corrosion set in.

Ozmoid, is correct in that these changes can make the speakers a little more forward especially, if you raise the speakers off the floor. Raising the speakers (with speaker stands etc.) diminishes the deep bass reinforcement you get by having the 3a's on the floor. So, when you effectively "cut the bass", the speakers will sound a little harsh or forward. (Please remember that the 3a will produce significantly MORE bass and deeper bass than the 2ax's that ozmoid has. Many reviewers over the years have characterized 3a's as "bass heavy" speakers, so a little boost in the mids and highs is usually appreciated.)

Jesse, if you leave the speakers on the floor, however, the balance with the pots as I described should be just about perfect PLUS ... you'll now hear that terrific DEEP, undistorted bass that made AR famous.

Regards,
Jerry

PS: ozmoid is also correct that if you want to push these speakers to their maximum potential, horizontal passive bi-amping will allow you to get everything out of them.

Below are the details for the pot mod. Even with this mod my 3a's are NOT as bright as my more modern pair of AR's with a 12 inch acoustic suspension woofer:

 

[winters860]

Jesse, Jesse, Jesse

First and foremost, I wouldn't get those woofers reconed unless there's really a rip or tear in the cone. Otherwise, as cruddy as they look, they probably only need a re-cone.

Second off, if you're refoaming (and especially if you're having a "professional" refoam them), go shimless and preserve the original flat dustcap. In my experience, the AR woofers are fairly forgiving and respond well to the "battery trick."

Third, and last off, I wouldn't bypass the pots. With deep respect for Jerry, I've seen some rather persuasive rebuttals to his argument that bypassing the tweeter pot would be a necessary change over the factory voicing. Do as you will, but refurbing the pots isn't terribly difficult in most cases.

You've happened upon a very nice set of speakers (ones I'd like to have) that would be a rewarding DIY restore from start to finish. This is not the speaker to half-ass. They're worth quite a bit the way you found them, and they're worth quite a bit more refurbished right. Dingle-engineering them or reconing if not absolutely necessary? :nono:

If you're unsure of the right thing to do with them, just sit on them until you've read enough where you're sure.

 

[ozmoid]

Hmm, I'll have to check back with them to see if the rheostats would be replaced or rebuilt...

Some can be rebuilt (just cleaned, really), some are beyond repair.

Are there replacement parts for this still available?

Few and far between, and none that I know of with the sealed back that the original rheostats have. Expect to pay $24 each or so if you find any. These are commercial controls, not designed for the speaker, but what you have in the AR is a ceramic wire-wound 16 ohm 25 watt (IIRC - might be 50?) rheostat, and not actually a "pot" as we think of them for audio.

 

[onplane]

Jesse, Jesse, Jesse

Third, and last off, I wouldn't bypass the pots. With deep respect for Jerry, I've seen some rather persuasive rebuttals to his argument that bypassing the tweeter pot would be a necessary change over the factory voicing.

Hi, Joe!

Just as a matter of clarification, I do NOT recommend by-passing the mid pot. (I did at one time, but no longer. So, I can understand the confusion I have created.)

I do, however, recommend by-passing COMPLETELY the tweeter pot. I really don't know why the tweeter output is so low. Can't be sure if it's a function of the tweeter's design or whether the tweeter’s butyl foam suspension has seriously degraded over all of these years. In any event, I can compare the output of the 3a tweeter to the output of the tweeter on an AR TSW-610 made in the late 80's (3 way – acoustic suspension – 12 inch woofer).

The tweeter in the 610 puts out at minimum of 2 and maybe 3 times the sound, yet crosses (according to AR) at exactly the same frequency, 5000Hz.

My reason for no longer completely by-passing the mid-pot is because of … the tweeter! Joe, when we by-pass the tweeter pot we gain all of 1 db in the tweeter. (Now, this is not a lot, but ... it’s something!) If we now, by-pass the mid pot, we in effect “give it all back”. That is, we are back to where we started as the mid driver continues to overpower the tweeter.

Joe, I hope this clarifies the mess I’ve made.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Jesse Garron]

Thanks for the tips. I certainly don't want to half arse these speakers, but I'm limited as to what I can spend now... I'll check by the shop manana to see about refoaming vs coning. The cones did have a bit of wear and dings.

I probably jumped the gun a day or two and should have researched these a bit more... So, I guess what I need to find out is:

Are the present cones salvagable

What would need to be replaced on the mid and high pots to get them working.

Although it's a tough term to apply to these speakers I really don't prefer bright or forward sound. Fatigue free is for me.


What's the reason to avoid reconing besides extra cost?

Thanks all


Although I don't have the skils/patients to re foam, Is working on the XO too hard? That seems easier to me - so if I end up bypassing the pots presently, I could research a DIY fix for the pots that I could do myself at a later date. Although it sure would be easier to work on with woofs out...

 

[onplane]

What would need to be replaced on the mid and high pots to get them working.

Jesse, it's hard to say. If they look like this, then you pretty much need to replace. (check with ozmoid as he knows all of the options for pot replacements)

Please bear in mind that vast majority of folks set the tweeter pot to max anyhow.

So, you could by-pass the tweeter pot and then use the better of the two pots for the mid driver. I mean you improve the chances of being able to gain some control over the mid driver. The huge problem with the pots is due to corrosion, they add resistance where none was ever intended. This resistance then starves the drivers for current.

So, Jesse, if you fail to deal with the "pot problem", you can restore the drivers and the box, but you haven't restored the fantastic AR sound.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[winters860]

Jerry,

I know you don't recommend bypassing the mid-pot, but only soldering it on full. You pimp your passive bi-amping and the mods you've done on the forums as if you stood to make money by them.

I get it, I get it, I get it.

All I'm saying is that I trust Ed Villchur also "got it" and if I were sitting on a pristine pair, I'd like to hear them as close as I could to the way they came from the factory before I got to fiddling around.

Jesse,

Putting new capacitors in and cleaning up the potentiometers isn't too difficult, but it will require a cheap soldering iron and a willingness to learn. I'm not sure of the caps in the 3a, but I bet you could probably replace them with Dayton polypropylenes for less than $20. The potentiometers will need replaced (or the tweeter pot bypassed, a la Jerry) if they look as bad as the ones in Jerry's pic. Otherwise, cleaning the pots should be easy with a Dremel tool and a brush attachment.

Reconing the woofer would most certainly irreparably change the engineering, and thus the voicing of the driver. You wouldn't be hearing a 3a, but something else, maybe better, probably worse. They used a very thin cardboard, as you've probably already seen; "pressed lint" as some people have called it. This wasn't to cheap up, but was rather part of the design. If the cones are truly shot, I'd wait around for a pair on ebay before I put money into reconing them. It'd probably be a similar cost in the long run. If they just need refoamed, though, get over yourself and buy a kit. It really isn't that intimidating.

These puppies won't be bright on their best day. You'll love 'em. Is it a bit of work, expense, and learning to do them right yourself? Yep. It's not rocket science, though. If you're not in a hurry, you'll be fine.

 

[ozmoid]

What's the reason to avoid reconing besides extra cost?

The AR woofers from this era are made of a felt-like substance, someone once referred to it as "pressed lint" and I 'd say that's accurate.

Unless the material is replicated pretty closely, I would guess that a re-cone would affect the tonal quality of these drivers - whether that is good or bad you won't know until you have one done. I can say that I've never seen any others quite like the AR woofers, but I haven't seen every driver ever shipped either.

 

[onplane]

Jerry,

I get it, I get it, I get it.

All I'm saying is that I trust Ed Villchur also "got it" and if I were sitting on a pristine pair, I'd like to hear them as close as I could to the way they came from the factory before I got to fiddling around.

Perhaps your advice would mean more, Joe, if you read what AR wrote back in 1968. To achieve a "uniform energy output at all audible frequencies ... level controls must be turned all the way UP -- both the mid range and tweeter controls -- AND treble tone control of the pre-amp turned up slightly ... "


But don't believe me, Joe .... try reading what AR wrote :

So, Joe, unless you listen exclusively to vinyl records made prior to 1968, any reductions from FULL ON in the pots settings move you away from a flat response.

Lastly, "the AR-3a was designed mainly by a very competent man named Chuck McShane, under Roy Allison's direction." The recommendation to by-pass the tweeter pot came NOT from me, Joe, but from .... Chuck McShane!


Joe, do you have anything .... anything at all to refute what I've conveyed here??


Regards,
Jerry

 

[Jesse Garron]

All of a sudden I feel like James Stockdale.