Are Class D Amps scaring the hell out of the BIG Boys ?

[DaveVoorhis]

Yes it is. But not informative.

Oh. Sorry.

Let me try again. You wrote:

Serious question Dave. Is that their final answer? Or "It depends" on certain variables, and those variables must be worked out? ...

If "it depends" is the final answer, then nothing is solved: Man never lands on the Moon, or creates Fire.

"It depends" is almost certainly the answer when the question doesn't sufficiently identify the values of known variables, or suggests unknown or unknowable variables.

For example, if you ask me whether you should buy a bus or a new set of roller skates, and that's all the information you give me, the right answer is, "it depends."

But if you tell me you want something that will get you to the new roller rink at the edge of town, the right answer is still probably, "it depends".

Or if you tell me you want something to take you and all your friends to the new roller rink at the edge of town, the right answer might seem like "the bus", but maybe all your friends want to skate there too?

So it depends...

In other words, "it depends" might be the final -- and perhaps unsatisfying -- answer if there is no opportunity for discussion. Otherwise, it should be the start of a dialogue, one where the discussion leads to a clearer understanding of the options, such that the answer might still be "it depends", but now you know what it depends on and can make a decision.

Is that better?

 

[mashaffer]

"To the engineer the glass is twice as large as it needs to be."

Is that original, mashaffer? If so, can I use it?

Not mine. Can't remember where I firsr heard it but it kind of rings true huh.

 

[UncleBingo]

From the poor handling and risk that the Hemi car is going to sideswipe them on launch?

Maybe.

From the speed, no.

1970 Plymouth Hemi Cuda 0 - 60: 6.3 seconds

Current Tesla Roadster 0 - 60: 2 seconds

Nah, just the sound and the fury I know the TesIa is faster and handIes better We'II see if the TesIa has any cooI-factor in 50 years No beef with TesIa or CIass-D amps
I'm probabIy in the minority here, but the specs are to the experience, as the map is to the territory (Sorry for the Iack of periods; that key died, resuIting in my onIine presence resembIing a rambIing hayseed)|

 

[cpt_paranoia]

If "it depends" is the final answer, then nothing is solved

What do you think?

The world around you is built by engineers. Do you really think nothing ever gets solved?

"It depends" is the first response, because the initial question is always incomplete, and, yes, the various parameters of the real question have to be determined.

 

[45rpmspinner]

I'll be interested to hear the product of Bruno Putzeys' new collaboration with Lars Risbo [ex-Texas Instruments].
Money man looks to be Peter Lyngdorf, who used to own NAD.
The team they've assembled for their new company, Purifi, is pretty amazing.
They hold 54 patents among them.

The new module [like the Hypex Ncore NC-400] doesn't use PWM or a comparator.
The amp is self-oscillating/timing. I assume, like the NC-400's, it's all discrete components.

Preliminary tests on the prototype, which has been shown recently at fairs, point to:
0.00017% THD+N [-116db] at 100W into 4ohms [actually a bit lower at 8ohms, and 0.0002 at 2ohms].
Even at 250W into 4ohms...the number is only a tiny bit higher.
Dynamic range is reportedly around 130db[a].
Noise floor itself looks to be around -140db.

Utterly flat frequency response 20-20khz [looking at the graphs I'd say it's more like 20-30k, only down 3db at 60khz].
Amazingly, that response appears to be completely independent of variations in speaker load.

Intermodulation distortion tested not only at 1k, but 18k and 19k as well....both at 10W and 100W....shows no artifacts rising above -120db.
Power supply rejection ratio is apparently so high that it makes little difference in terms of what's used.
Output impedance is so low it's hard to measure.
EMI has been reduced to point where it's expected the module will sail through certification for consumer use.

Tl;dr version: Putzeys is out to make a powerful ultra-low distortion amp with high dynamics that drives any speaker and preforms well even with a sub-par ps.
Essentially, an amp with no inherent coloration. A wire with gain.

Love it, hate it...that's up to you.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Sorry no. I think Class A/B is here to stay, I think Audio Equipment market, in general, that will be the niche market.

A niche of the niche market then

 

[Poultrygeist]

I'll be interested to hear the product of Bruno Putzeys' new collaboration with Lars Risbo [ex-Texas Instruments].
Money man looks to be Peter Lyngdorf, who used to own NAD.
The team they've assembled for their new company, Purifi, is pretty amazing.
They hold 54 patents among them.

The new module [like the Hypex Ncore NC-400] doesn't use PWM or a comparator.
The amp is self-oscillating/timing. I assume, like the NC-400's, it's all discrete components.

Preliminary tests on the prototype, which has been shown recently at fairs, point to:
0.00017% THD+N [-116db] at 100W into 4ohms [actually a bit lower at 8ohms, and 0.0002 at 2ohms].
Even at 250W into 4ohms...the number is only a tiny bit higher.
Dynamic range is reportedly around 130db[a].
Noise floor itself looks to be around -140db.

Utterly flat frequency response 20-20khz [looking at the graphs I'd say it's more like 20-30k, only down 3db at 60khz].
Amazingly, that response appears to be completely independent of variations in speaker load.

Intermodulation distortion tested not only at 1k, but 18k and 19k as well....both at 10W and 100W....shows no artifacts rising above -120db.
Power supply rejection ratio is apparently so high that it makes little difference in terms of what's used.
Output impedance is so low it's hard to measure.
EMI has been reduced to point where it's expected the module will sail through certification for consumer use.

Tl;dr version: Putzeys is out to make a powerful ultra-low distortion amp with high dynamics that drives any speaker and preforms well even with a sub-par ps.
Essentially, an amp with no inherent coloration. A wire with gain.

Love it, hate it...that's up to you.

And the Chinese will soon have one on eBay

 

[45rpmspinner]

And the Chinese will soon have one on eBay

I rather doubt it as there no knee-jerk way to do what Putzeys up to.
There is no chip to buy.
One has to very carefully map the interaction of oscillation to feedback levels.

Just an example:
Seen any cheap Ncore Nc 400 clones on the market?
Same principle involved in that module.
They've been around awhile.

 

[Poultrygeist]

I rather doubt it as there no knee-jerk way to do what Putzeys up to.
There is no chip to buy.
One has to very carefully map the interaction of oscillation to feedback levels.

Just an example:
Seen any cheap Ncore Nc 400 clones on the market?
Same principle involved in that module.
They've been around awhile.

You can buy the naked TPA311D2 evaluation module from Texas Instrument for $149 or you can buy it's Chinese clone on eBay for $4. Give'm time.

 

[45rpmspinner]

You can buy the naked TPA311D2 evaluation module from Texas Instrument for $149 or you can buy it's Chinese clone on eBay for $4. Give'm time.

Low hanging fruit.
You can buy TPA 3116/8 chips for pocket change.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Low hanging fruit.
You can buy TPA 3116/8 chips for pocket change.

eBay lists several affordable Hypex Ncore modules from China and as competition increases the price will only get lower.

 

[bimasta]

Do you really think nothing ever gets solved?

Obviously not. I wrote a reductio ad absurdum to elicit a response from Dave. You altered my statement by omitting half of it, the half which pointed out the absurdity: "Man never lands on the Moon, or creates Fire."

When altering a quote, one uses an ellipsis to show it's been altered. Or don't call it a quote — "bimasta said" — because it isn't what I said.

"Ellipsis indicates the omission from a sentence of words needed to complete the sense or the construction, so that the reader may instantly realize the scope of the quotation is incomplete."

Now back to the cost of Hypex modules, which is more interesting. I hope assembly instructions will be included, or a link to them. It's the most intriguing low-cost DIY project I've seen in ages.

 

[45rpmspinner]

eBay lists several affordable Hypex Ncore modules from China and as competition increases the price will only get lower.

I only see one used Ncore NC 500 listed for $450.
The other is a Hypex UcD.....an older more conventionally designed model being phased out.
Both are genuine Hypex models.

Please provide a link to Chinese clones of the Ncore models.

 

[45rpmspinner]

Now back to the cost of Hypex modules, which is more interesting. I hope assembly instructions will be included, or a link to them. It's the most intriguing low-cost DIY project I've seen in ages.

Not so cheap.
NC-400 kit is very easy though. They say there's no soldering, but from what I've seen you have to solder the input/output leads.
https://www.diyclassd.com/product/nc400-mono-kit-(complete-kit)/24
Thats the DIY site owned by Hypex.

It is of course possible to just buy the modules, power supplies, and cables....then box it yourself.
Ghent audio sells a selection of boxes for this purpose.
Presumably that saves a bit.

 

[bsandovalb]

I'll be interested to hear the product of Bruno Putzeys' new collaboration with Lars Risbo [ex-Texas Instruments].
Money man looks to be Peter Lyngdorf, who used to own NAD.
The team they've assembled for their new company, Purifi, is pretty amazing.
They hold 54 patents among them.

The new module [like the Hypex Ncore NC-400] doesn't use PWM or a comparator.
The amp is self-oscillating/timing. I assume, like the NC-400's, it's all discrete components.

Preliminary tests on the prototype, which has been shown recently at fairs, point to:
0.00017% THD+N [-116db] at 100W into 4ohms [actually a bit lower at 8ohms, and 0.0002 at 2ohms].
Even at 250W into 4ohms...the number is only a tiny bit higher.
Dynamic range is reportedly around 130db[a].
Noise floor itself looks to be around -140db.

Utterly flat frequency response 20-20khz [looking at the graphs I'd say it's more like 20-30k, only down 3db at 60khz].
Amazingly, that response appears to be completely independent of variations in speaker load.

Intermodulation distortion tested not only at 1k, but 18k and 19k as well....both at 10W and 100W....shows no artifacts rising above -120db.
Power supply rejection ratio is apparently so high that it makes little difference in terms of what's used.
Output impedance is so low it's hard to measure.
EMI has been reduced to point where it's expected the module will sail through certification for consumer use.

Tl;dr version: Putzeys is out to make a powerful ultra-low distortion amp with high dynamics that drives any speaker and preforms well even with a sub-par ps.
Essentially, an amp with no inherent coloration. A wire with gain.

Love it, hate it...that's up to you.

Do you have an idea of the price point?… the kii three was an interesting all in one solution from Bruno..., but the price point quite high...

 

[cpt_paranoia]

You altered my statement by omitting half of it, the half

I've done it again. To save space... An engineer, striving for efficiency again...

The forum software includes a link to the post the quote is taken from (the little arrow beside the post); anyone can use that to read the entire source post. The forum software allows partial quotes; I didn't have to delete anything. There's no intention to twist anything you've said.

Your post to a response from Dave. It got an almost identical response from me.

 

[ev13wt]

...

The forum software includes a link to the post the quote is taken from (the little arrow beside the post); anyone can use that to read the entire source post. The forum software allows partial quotes; I didn't have to delete anything. There's no intention to twist anything you've said.

...

I think if you delete parts of what you are quoting, you ARE taking it out of context. As such you really should do something.
1. First time I've heard elipsis - an option I need to google
2. <snip> (Seen this a lot)
3. ... (what I did)

It's an indicator that something is missing. Nice to have.

 

[GChief]

And at the end of the day we are discussing music playback in our homes for entertainment and not curing cancer so does it really matter

 

[ev13wt]

From the poor handling and risk that the Hemi car is going to sideswipe them on launch?

Maybe.

From the speed, no.

1970 Plymouth Hemi Cuda 0 - 60: 6.3 seconds

Current Tesla Roadster 0 - 60: 2 seconds

Just saying: the Tesla is a crappy handling boat as well. Heavy AF too. Nice ninja edit as well. You ain't getting out of this one.

If you pull up in a 70' CUDA, well, it's like pulling up in an 64 E-Type instead of 19 F-Type. Nobody fking cares about the pretty F-type. (an it's an actual car unlike that Tesla boat)

 

[GChief]

Just saying: the Tesla is a crappy handling boat as well. Heavy AF too. Nice ninja edit as well. You ain't getting out of this one.

If you pull up in a 70' CUDA, well, it's like pulling up in an 64 E-Type instead of 19 F-Type. Nobody fking cares about the pretty F-type. (an it's an actual car unlike that Tesla boat)

Having driven everything mentioned except the new F type I can’t agree

But that’s ok


I do love me some E’s