Are DUAL 1019 or 1219 a pile of metal?

[dianag]

Hello!
I am a newbie into turntables. I didn't knew anything until few months ago. I do think that learnt a little. My world got rocked back then... I am too young to turntable world, but I have to make a present for someone who's biggest wish is to have a DUAL 1019 or DUAL 1219. So I started searching on ebay and local websites a DUAL mentioned above.

In my defense I did read some about both TT but a seller wrote me this: "DUAL 1019/1219 does not worth buying because it has rubber rings who spins the platter. It is the most rudimentary transmission system ever made and the performances are low. I would recommend a belt drive or a direct drive turntable. Indeed, those TT have 78 RPM and a SHURE cardridge. As I was writing, they are a pile of metal. I would recommend a DUAL 521 or a DUAL CS-1214."

Well, that was the stripped version of his message. It rocked my world again... If he has an account here then I'm in trouble for shure...

My problems would be>
- How will I say to my friend " You know, I can not find you a DUAL 1019/1219 because a seller told me it is not worth the price, it is a pile of metal not worth buying". You should desire a DUAL 521 or 1214.
- Is he right or is he blabering cause I am a girl and he thought he could foul me...?

My friend read that DUAL 1019/1219 were the best ones made by DUAL.
I do not want to bother anyone or start a polemic post...

Thanks guys!

 

[Zvezda]

Idler drives have a big following these days. There are ways to make them quiet(er) by fastening them to a massive, solid plinth. Most people with Idler Duals like them once they get them working, but I can't say I've seen a lot of custom plinth projects on them. The main drawback to these models is the complexity of the changer mechanism. Once the old grease dries, these have a tendency to seize and need careful disassembly, cleaning, relubrication and reassembly before they're usable. The other big problem is in the headshell contacts. They tend to corrode and cause dropouts and hum issues.

As far as sound goes, I haven't listened to any personally, but the 1019 in particular has a cult following. Apparently that short little tonearm and the heavy 10" platter has some magic in it.

If you're interested in picking one up, you might check fixmydual.com .

 

[MacNoob]

People really like the 1019 and 1219 (and 1229)

They are well built heavy duty tables with a lot of support in terms of parts/repair/etc. They are getting pretty old and would need some work if you found an unrestored one.

The idler drive system (rubber wheel) can't produce the same technical specifications as a belt or direct drive but they apparently sound great anyways.

I use direct drive tables exclusively (just worked out that way) but I would sure like to try a 1219. Or a Thorens 124. Or any number of excellent idler drive tables.

NOT JUNK.

 

[Montycat]

"Pile of metal" in a good way. In other words solidly built to last unlike a lot of plastic junk.

As the others have said they might need to work to be at their best but at their best they are VERY good. I have both and like them each a lot.

 

[kermit z]

You need to figure out a budget for the table. I refurbished table will be plug and play usually. If the table has not been gone thru then it will take time, and patience. I had a Dual 1209 that I really enjoyed a lot. There was a little bit of rumble compared to my other tables, but that never bothered me at all. And the functions all worked. I loved watching the mechanical nature of that table

 

[boreas]

a seller wrote me this: "DUAL 1019/1219 does not worth buying because it has rubber rings who spins the platter. It is the most rudimentary transmission system ever made and the performances are low. I would recommend a belt drive or a direct drive turntable."

I'll bet this seller had a direct drive turntable he wanted to sell you.

There are three general types of drive systems for turntables: belt drive, direct drive and idler drive. It's possible to make either very good or very poor turntables of all three types and there is no clear "best" or "worst" type. The fact of the matter is you can get excellent turntables in any of these drive types and those Duals are quite good.

As said, these Duals are changers, capable of automatically playing several records in succession, so they're rather complex mechanically. They're quite well engineered, however, so, despite the fact that these turntables may need some heavy maintenance and light repairs (or they may not), once tuned up, they perform very well for a very long time.

John

 

[N8Nagel]

Hello!
I am a newbie into turntables. I didn't knew anything until few months ago. I do think that learnt a little. My world got rocked back then... I am too young to turntable world, but I have to make a present for someone who's biggest wish is to have a DUAL 1019 or DUAL 1219. So I started searching on ebay and local websites a DUAL mentioned above.

In my defense I did read some about both TT but a seller wrote me this: "DUAL 1019/1219 does not worth buying because it has rubber rings who spins the platter. It is the most rudimentary transmission system ever made and the performances are low. I would recommend a belt drive or a direct drive turntable. Indeed, those TT have 78 RPM and a SHURE cardridge. As I was writing, they are a pile of metal. I would recommend a DUAL 521 or a DUAL CS-1214."

Well, that was the stripped version of his message. It rocked my world again... If he has an account here then I'm in trouble for shure...

My problems would be>
- How will I say to my friend " You know, I can not find you a DUAL 1019/1219 because a seller told me it is not worth the price, it is a pile of metal not worth buying". You should desire a DUAL 521 or 1214.
- Is he right or is he blabering cause I am a girl and he thought he could foul me...?

My friend read that DUAL 1019/1219 were the best ones made by DUAL.
I do not want to bother anyone or start a polemic post...

Thanks guys!

My 2 cents, as the owner of a 1019, 1226 (lower end version of 1229) and CS506-1 (belt drive)

there is absolutely nothing wrong with an idler drive Dual if it is in good shape. The idler can have new rubber put on it. Shures aren't bad cartridges, some of them are quite nice. the 10xx/12xx turntables are built like tanks and generally come on an attractive if not ideal wood plinth as opposed to the later belt drives which have a plastic plinth with fake woodgrain on it. The capability of playing 78RPM records is a bonus, not a downside.

If I had to pick one of my tables for sonic quality it would probably be shockingly the CS506-1 but not by a lot and there are too many variables (both the 1019 and 1226 have Shure M97xE cartridges on them while the CS506-1 has an Ortofon OM-10, for one) to make the statement that it is a better table overall.

I don't know if I have bad luck, but I have had to buy a new sled for every single Dual I've ever purchased. $45 from eFlay seller patsaudioparts (I think that's right) of course all three of mine use a different sled so I had to buy all three of them, couldn't just move the cartridge over to the table I wanted to use.

If your friend wants an idler drive Dual, I say get him one. If the seller of the table in question runs down that series tell him to sell it to you cheap

I'm sure someone else has probably already mentioned that you should be looking at 1229s as well as they are similar and comparable to a 1219. I can't remember if it is the 1219, 1229 or both but there is a potential issue with the mechanism to adjust the tonearm pivot height that you should be aware of (search 'n' read) so be careful in that area and don't force anything if you end up getting one and setting it up for your friend.

 

[boreas]

the 10xx/12xx turntables are built like tanks and generally come on an attractive if not ideal wood plinth as opposed to the later belt drives which have a plastic plinth with fake woodgrain on it.

At a guess, I'm thinking the OP is in Europe. If so, that would mean that the bases for these turntables are going to be different from the rather "cheesy" United Audio-supplied bases in the US or the somewhat better Noresco ones in Canada. There were other German-made bases that were available in Europe and, to a lesser extent, in North America that were really quite good.

John

 

[dr*audio]

You can't make an idler wheel turntable quiet just by making a massive base for it, because the main problem is the idler conducts vibration from the motor to the platter, and the cartridge picks up that vibration. A massive platter only helps with feedback, people walking and external vibration. But that isn't the real problem with these old Duals. They sound pretty good, but for the money you will spend buying one and then restoring it, you could buy a more modern table with a much better arm. The old Duals used a spring for applying anti skating and tracking force. This is a problem because it isn't constant, especially the anti skate. As the distance increases, the force increases. Other turntables use a weight, which is going to exert a constant force. Also, the linkages for the automatic functions on the old Duals exert friction against the arm movement, causing excess wear on the grooves of the record, and distortion. More modern, better quality turntables either have no automatic functions at all, or have an electronic sensor at the end of the record to lift the arm, and no automatic set down on the record requiring linkages which would interfere with the arm motion. Denons have a slick motor system that moves the arm and completely disengages during play.

 

[N8Nagel]

You can't make an idler wheel turntable quiet just by making a massive base for it, because the main problem is the idler conducts vibration from the motor to the platter, and the cartridge picks up that vibration. A massive platter only helps with feedback, people walking and external vibration. But that isn't the real problem with these old Duals. They sound pretty good, but for the money you will spend buying one and then restoring it, you could buy a more modern table with a much better arm. The old Duals used a spring for applying anti skating and tracking force. This is a problem because it isn't constant, especially the anti skate. As the distance increases, the force increases. Other turntables use a weight, which is going to exert a constant force. Also, the linkages for the automatic functions on the old Duals exert friction against the arm movement, causing excess wear on the grooves of the record, and distortion. More modern, better quality turntables either have no automatic functions at all, or have an electronic sensor at the end of the record to lift the arm, and no automatic set down on the record requiring linkages which would interfere with the arm motion. Denons have a slick motor system that moves the arm and completely disengages during play.

I have about $100 in each of a 1226 and 506-1, including new cartridges, so there's a reason I have Duals For some reason they are semi-plentiful and inexpensive local to me. Other tables, not so much.

Also, the "restoring" of the 1226 (really just a CLA and a homemade steuerpimpel) went much better than the ongoing "work" (mostly looking at it and hating it) on a Garrard Lab 80 which is fighting me. I know, I knew what I was getting into, I must be a glutton for punishment.

 

[N8Nagel]

At a guess, I'm thinking the OP is in Europe. If so, that would mean that the bases for these turntables are going to be different from the rather "cheesy" United Audio-supplied bases in the US or the somewhat better Noresco ones in Canada. There were other German-made bases that were available in Europe and, to a lesser extent, in North America that were really quite good.

John

If in Europe, I wonder what the used market prices are for Thorens vs. Dual, I would not turn my nose up at a good Thorens. Around me they are significantly more expensive, but I don't know the market in EU

 

[highwaychild]

That is interesting - a 1214 should perform better than a 1019 or 1219? Very light platter, high rev motor, sub-prime bearings...that should make you wonder.
The arm bearings of a 521 are only middle-class, as well. If you want to compare the Duals, you should take a 701 or 601 - those have equal bearings.

Do not let them confuse you: a 1019 or 1219 in good condition is worth buying. The friction exerted from the automatics is less then 0.5 mN, that is not very much.
The anti-skating itself isn't constant at all on the tracking, and it is very precise, as the tracking force adjustment is. The difference between indicated and true tracking force is less than 0.1 with my 1219 and 1019, and less than 0.2 with my Braun PS600 (almost the same spring-loaded assembly with this).
A idler is never as quiet as a good belt-driven turntable is, but it has other qualities.

 

[highwaychild]

Here in Europe, Thorens is also well regarded - and this fame is costly. "Over here" Thorens is also much more expensive than Dual. Always was and will always be...

 

[boreas]

You can't make an idler wheel turntable quiet just by making a massive base for it, because the main problem is the idler conducts vibration from the motor to the platter, and the cartridge picks up that vibration. A massive platter only helps with feedback, people walking and external vibration. But that isn't the real problem with these old Duals. They sound pretty good, but for the money you will spend buying one and then restoring it, you could buy a more modern table with a much better arm. The old Duals used a spring for applying anti skating and tracking force. This is a problem because it isn't constant, especially the anti skate. As the distance increases, the force increases. Other turntables use a weight, which is going to exert a constant force. Also, the linkages for the automatic functions on the old Duals exert friction against the arm movement, causing excess wear on the grooves of the record, and distortion. More modern, better quality turntables either have no automatic functions at all, or have an electronic sensor at the end of the record to lift the arm, and no automatic set down on the record requiring linkages which would interfere with the arm motion. Denons have a slick motor system that moves the arm and completely disengages during play.

While I agree with much of what you say about resonances, it's important to point out that only some Duals use a "dynamically balanced (sprung) tonearm for setting tracking force and these tend to be the really cheap ones. The two turntables the OP mentioned, the 1019 and 1219, have statically balanced (weighted).

Another point is that the use of a spring for anti-skate really doesn't present much of a problem beyond eventual fatigue. Just as the tension in a spring increases as it's stretched, the skating forces exerted on the stylus increase as the radius of the grooves decreases. This means that the tension on the spring and the skating force both increase as the stylus approaches the spindle. The two forces, therefore, tend to offset each other.

As to wear on the groove wall caused by the changer mechanism, I'm not completely sure of this but it's my recollection that the mechanism completely disengages from the arm once the start cycle is complete, thus causing no drag on the arm at all during play.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for Duals. My preferences lead me elsewhere and, while I have owned Duals in the past, I don't own one now and am not likely to. They are, however, perfectly fine turntables for most serious/semi-serious listeners.



John

 

[muovimies]

While I agree with much of what you say about resonances, it's important to point out that only some Duals use a "dynamically balanced (sprung) tonearm for setting tracking force and these tend to be the really cheap ones. The two turntables the OP mentioned, the 1019 and 1219, have statically balanced (weighted).

Both the 1019 and 1219/1229 have dynamically balanced tonearms, so they do have the springs. Usually dynamic balancing is used on the better models, for example Thorens TD-160 has a dynamically balanced tonearm vs. the cheaper TD-165 with essentially the same arm, but static balance and antiskate by string and weight instead of a magnet. Rega is another example, RB300 and upwards are dynamically balanced, while the lower models are static. Besides, the Dual arms beat many cheaper S-shaped arms for sound quality IMO, spring or no spring, though they don't look like much and some of the design choices seem questionable, like the infamous cartridge sleds.

 

[dr*audio]

I had a 1218 and it had the spring and dial for the stylus force. I thought the 1219 had the same thing, it's been years since I've seen one. I stand corrected (or maybe not!)
Similarly, all the Duals I remember working on had a slide (for want of a better word) under the platter that moves with the arm and actuated the pawl on the cam gear that makes it eject at the end of the record. I am pretty sure the 1219 has this also. so the arm has to drag that slide along with it as it plays, causing excess friction.

 

[kirk57]

I'm pretty sure the only time any part of the tonearm assembly comes into contact with anything on the Dual is at the beginning and end of the record. Even the much older Garrard lab 80 avoids doing that, and the less expensive BICs.

As far as the OPs question, I've had a couple of 1229s and they are silent in operation if in a good state of repair. Be wary of people making sweeping generalizations about turntable drive methods.

In general, generalization are ALL wrong.

 

[pfcs49]

I've used some damn nice turntables and I always wonder about getting a 1019 again. I had one a long time ago, for a long time, and it is one great deck!
Every christmas I miss it. Our tradition was to stack the 3 record set of the Messiah on it and it would play through it in order until it needed all 3 flipped again-and it lacked nothing in performance compared to a lot of much more expensive baubles.
Go for it!

 

[danj]

The mentioned idler-drive Duals are precision machines that are generally very highly regarded. I've been a Dual owner since 1973 and never regretted it. I wonder if the said "seller" has ever experienced one or if he is just repeating someone else's cynical opinion. BTW, the 1214 is an idler-drive turntable.

Because of their age, the idler Duals require attention to maintenance but the same can be said about a lot of vintage products (and their users!).

 

[boreas]

I had a 1218 and it had the spring and dial for the stylus force. I thought the 1219 had the same thing, it's been years since I've seen one. I stand corrected (or maybe not!)

"Not" It's my memory that's faulty, not yours.