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Are regular hifi amps suitable for headphone amplification?

M

mzry

New Member
I'm a little confused. Do you need a headphone amp if you have a decent hifi amplifier & good headphones? I've got Sennheiser hd580's (had them since 1997) And I have noticed that they do sound better through vintage amplifiers in my experience.

Are all hifi amps different in their headphone power output? :S
 
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If you have a decent integrated/receiver or even a component like a cdp with a headphone output, you do not necessarily need a stand alone headphone amp. They certainly can have their advantages in terms of quality and small footprint for on a desk or nightstand, but you don't NEED one.

In terms of sound, there are many factors in play here. You may just be hearing the differences amongst different amps due to variations in their preamp stages. There are also design considerations as to whether the headphone stage is an actual separate internal amp designed for headphone output, or just a "tap" from the power amplifier output.

Headphones are also not like speakers that are typically built with a 4-8 ohm impedence rating. Headphones can vary much more dramatically with respect to impedence, so there are considerably different demands on the headphone amplifier based on model/brand of headphone. Different headphone amp designs are better suited to handle different headphone impedences.
 
Many of the vintage receivers headphone jacks are connected to the speaker taps with a resistor in line to reduce the power. The newer gear tends to have an op amp driven headphone out. A well implemented design can sound very good, so don't rule them out immediately.

I have a few dedicated headphone amps and some vintage receivers, all with differing power outputs. The HD580's are pretty sensitive at 97db so they probably don't need much power, but they are also 300ohm impedance. I bet they would rock from an OTL tube amp (ex.: Bottlehead crack or Schiit Valhalla).

Short answer, do you need an amp? Not necessarily, but it's likely it will sound a bit better.
 
I have a McIntosh MC2205 driving Sennheiser HE600s via BALANCED cable from the 8 ohm tap.
The detail is outstanding!
I can hear differences in instruments I have not heard since 35 years ago when I spent a good amount of time with an amateur orchestra (50 pieces) in a real orchestra pit in a theater.
I will caution this - if you have Sennheisers, get BALANCED cables (somewhere between $100 and $200 - depending on your source). That way you are not trying to share the negative signal between the two channels. I did that 40 yars ago with an old Roberts 1040 tape deck (tube circuits) and nothing blew up. BUT - I cannot vouch for all modern solid state circuits. By using balanced cables, you are not tryng to "share" the negative side of the signal between both channels. Each channel is "free" to work on its own.
There is a lot of discussion on dedicated headphone forums about the advantage of balanced cables for headphones. I do not know if it is that - or if it is the inherent quality of the McIntosh Amp, or if it is the "headroom" that is never really used (most of my listening is with the meters at 0.002 watts - on peaks it may get to 0.02 watts). I know there will not be any difficulty to the amp when the cannons come in on Wellington's Victory or the 1812 Overture!
To answer your question - yes regular amplifier amp outputs will work on headphones. If you find the right amp, the resolution (i.e., detail of instruments) will amaze you - AND you should never run out of headroom.
Just remember two things:
ONE - use balanced cables (to protect the amp - no matter what its design).
and
TWO - watch that volume control - do not let it get you carried away - it can damage your ears as well as the headphones themselves!
 
Generally - Yes a good integrated or receiver is suitable for headphones. On the other hand a great sounding $500 receiver will be blown out of the water by a $500 HP amp. No contest there.
 
In my opinion nope,if you have a TOTL integrated or pre-amp/power-amp combo then there's no point in buying a headphone amp as it's more-or-less a recent trend that's started to catch on because of cheap computer/downloading/streaming. After all,even decent old DAC's like the Marantz CDA-94 had amazing headphone amps built-in back then as did TOTL CDP's like the NEC CD-903 with it's attenuator. A decent pair of headphones is a must though,preferably a modern pair like Sennheiser HD-650's.
 
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Daunia 70 said:
In my opinion nope,if you have a TOTL integrated or pre-amp/power-amp combo then there's no point in buying a headphone amp as it's more-or-less a recent trend that's started to catch on because of cheap computer/downloading/streaming. After all,even decent old DAC's like the Marantz CDA-94 had amazing headphone amps built-in back then as did TOTL CDP's like the NEC CD-903 with it's attenuator. A decent pair of headphones is a must though,preferably a modern pair like Sennheiser HD-650's.
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Daunia,

I have to disagree - Garbage in garbage out, you know. You can't get around it. In my experience using a HP amp revealed just how bad lossy files sound with good/great headphones. Not just craptastic MP3's, even 320 VBR. So much so, I was forced my to re-rip my CD collection (1,100) a 3rd time in lossless.
 
My understanding is that it probably isn't a matter of the power of the headphone outputs so much as it is the quality of the headphone output components. I think some integrated amps (such as the ones from Bryston) have really good headphone sections and with some other companies the headphone output wasn't much of a priority.

With my HD800s I personally can't hear a difference between the headphone output of my Oppo 105 and my Schiit Lry2.

With a separate headphone amp you also have to factor in the quality of your interconnect cable.
 
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elcoholic said:
Daunia,

I have to disagree - Garbage in garbage out, you know. You can't get around it. In my experience using a HP amp revealed just how bad lossy files sound with good/great headphones. Not just craptastic MP3's, even 320 VBR. So much so, I was forced my to re-rip my CD collection (1,100) a 3rd time in lossless.
Click to expand...


Like I stated if you have a TOTL integrated from the 70's,or even a modern one from the likes of Accuphase or Luxman,then buying a headphone amp is a complete waste of time.

OK,I agree if you listen through a computer,laptop/notebook,Ipod and/or streaming device then they're probably worth it,but for TOTL components I certainly wouldn't waste my money (just buy better quality headphones instead). They're more-or-less the same as all these fancy new standalone DAC's... and yep,I've compared quite a few to TOTL components from years past. Sadly,today it's a different world in hi-fi... cheaply made in China components that are only really an upgrade if you have crap sources etc (which sadly most younger folks have nowadays).
 
I just entered the headphone world for occasional use - Sennheiser HD-598's.

I was kinda asking this exact question a bit ago - I was thankful for the advice I received here. I have a Luxman L-450 Integrated.....and I was told to give them time with the Luxman before I jump to a stand alone HP amp.

I am very pleased with the performance through the L-450. For my ears the performance is just fine.....as undiscerning as they might be!!

To the OP - good luck with your decision!
 
Daunia 70 said:
Like I stated if you have a TOTL integrated from the 70's,or even a modern one from the likes of Accuphase or Luxman,then buying a headphone amp is a complete waste of time.

OK,I agree if you listen through a computer,laptop/notebook,Ipod and/or streaming device then they're probably worth it,but for TOTL components I certainly wouldn't waste my money (just buy better quality headphones instead). They're more-or-less the same as all these fancy new standalone DAC's... and yep,I've compared quite a few to TOTL components from years past. Sadly,today it's a different world in hi-fi... cheaply made in China components that are only really an upgrade if you have crap sources etc (which sadly most younger folks have nowadays).
Click to expand...

I agree completely, but that wasn't what the OP asked about. He asked about a "decent" amplifier, not TOTL.
 
Suitable..

mzry said:
I'm a little confused. Do you need a headphone amp if you have a decent hifi amplifier & good headphones? I've got Sennheiser hd580's (had them since 1997) And I have noticed that they do sound better through vintage amplifiers in my experience.

Are all hifi amps different in their headphone power output? :S
Click to expand...

Most amps I have heard/seen have a suitable "in-board" headphone amp.

The feature I miss, and lacking on most amps, is a volume control.

Handy but rare.. :scratch2:
 
depends on the gear and the headphones but in my experience YES..

I have had for some time a FiiO E07K/E09K combo it sounds pretty good I guess before xmas I mainly used it with my AT M50's or my DT770 Pro 80's for xmas i got 300 ohm DT880 Premium headphones, I have after extended listening concluded rather decisively my 80's Kenwood KR-V106R sounds better with the DT880's than the FiiO and I also have a Sony TA-E77ESD in the room by my PC it sounds AMAZING with the DT880's much better than the FiiO inho..
 
Headphone amplifiers are a recent trend and overall they are a giant waste of money. There, I've said it. If you don't agree, that's fine, but bring some facts to the table if you want to call me on it.

Most decent preamplifiers of the 1980s and 1990s, along with TOTL CD players have have headphone stages that obliterate most of the overpriced little class AB amplifiers-in-a-can masquerading as dedicated 'headphone amplifiers'. Remember, a headphone amp is another stage, in another box, with another power supply and with a whole lot of its own issues.

If your source is a PC or a laptop maybe you could justify a dedicated headphone amp (if headphones were what you listened to exclusively), but you'd be better off buying a preamp with a decent headphone stage or a low noise, high gain integrated from the late 80s/early 90s, with a super low noise floor for the same money.

Duania 70s DAC has a headphone stage that can swing more than enough voltage for any of the 'difficult' cans with plenty of control. How do I know? I've got the Marantz DA12 LE DAC and it is simply sublime running my AKG702/601/501s and the 702s aren't exactly an easy can to drive. My DA12 LE a very similar topology in the headphone stage to his DAC.

The Sony TAE77esd that Atarione uses, has a headphone stage based on an 5532 opamp on split 18.5v rails with only a 100ohms series resistor. It can swing +/-13volts into a 600ohm impedance with ease. I have several of those preamps and the headphone stage is wonderful.

With headphone driving circuitry, there's no mystery. All you need is a low output impedance, a vanishingly low residual noise floor, the capability to swing sufficient voltage and low distortion and a ruler flat response. Most quality preamplifiers do this with ease. They may need their headphone series resistors removing, because they were put in to protect headphones and users from damage when most headphones were low impedance in the 70s and 80s. (<16 ohms).
 
nice post John as always I am impressed with your knowledge / insight..

thank for the details on the 77ESD btw.. interesting.. listening to the 77ESD now w/ the DT880's so good.. really love it...
 
I was using a dedicated headphone amp for my Beyerdynamic T1, but then i had the chance to test it on vintage gear, and that blew my Schiit Magni, i was using from my old headphones, out of the water. I then went and got my self a Vintage Optonica amp and have been using it ever since. It works great and sound fantastic, but the old rule of Garbage in Garbage out applies here as well.
 
Adapters for H'phones..

Years ago some companies made reducer boxes(the best name I could call it) that connected to the speaker outputs if your amp didn't have a phone connector. The connection from the speaker terminals was then into the box where the signal was reduced and supposedly matched to your phones.
I had one from Knight and there were others. Some even had a volume control and maybe balance. Your phones then had a 1/4" jack (maybe 2) for listening.
They were ok.
I found built in amp phone jacks better than hooking up a bunch of wires.

Paul
 
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