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Are we obsessed with bass?

I am just taking a stab at this, time alignment, and that is where many people that use external subs and distributed bass system will find their weakness. Using external active crossover with time delays one could theoretically compensate, and make the adjustments for it, but most people have neither the equipment or the knowledge on how to do it correctly, yet will still advance their opinion how much better distributed bass is or using subs to complement their monitors.

To electronically phase align the speakers is not hard as long as the drivers are quite close, just as many speakers manufactures physically align the driver to get their speakers time aligned. But when you start placing Subs quite some distance from the mids and hi frequency drivers, then you start creating situations where time alignment is going to be a bit more challenging.

That's a great point, but I'd say unless you are in a very large room or very well treated room, the bass is always going to get smeared by room nodes. IIRC a 30hz soundwave is some 40 feet long, it's going to bounce all over the place in a room killing accuracy.
 
That's a great point, but I'd say unless you are in a very large room or very well treated room, the bass is always going to get smeared by room nodes. IIRC a 30hz soundwave is some 40 feet long, it's going to bounce all over the place in a room killing accuracy.

Ethan Winer:

"There is a common myth that small rooms cannot reproduce low frequencies because they are not large enough for the waves to "develop" properly. While it is true that low frequencies have very long wavelengths - for example, a 30 Hz wave is nearly 38 feet long - there is no physical reason such long waves cannot exist within a room that is much smaller than that. What defines the dimensions of a room are the wall spacing and floor-to-ceiling height. Sound waves generated within a room either pass through the room boundaries, bounce off them, or are absorbed. In fact, all three of these often apply. That is, when a sound wave strikes a wall some of its energy may be reflected, some may be absorbed, and some may pass through to the outside.

When low frequencies are attenuated in a room, the cause is always canceling reflections. All that is needed to allow low frequency waves to sound properly and with a uniform frequency response is to remove or at least reduce the reflections. A popular argument is that low frequencies need the presence of a room mode that's low enough to "support" a given frequency. However, modes are not necessary for a wave to exist. As proof, any low frequency can be produced outdoors - and of course there are no room modes outdoors!

Here's a good way to look at the issue: Imagine you set up a high quality loudspeaker outdoors, play some low frequency tones, and then measure the frequency response five feet in front of the speaker. In this case the measured frequency response outdoors will be exactly as flat as the loudspeaker. Now wall in a small area, say 10x10x10 feet, using very thin paper, and measure the response again. The low frequencies are still present in this "room" because the thin paper is transparent at low frequencies and they pass right through. Now, make the walls progressively heavier using thick paper, then thin wood, then thicker wood, then sheet rock, and finally brick or cement. With each increase in wall density, reflections will cause cancellations within the room at ever-lower frequencies as the walls become massive enough to reflect the waves.

Therefore, it is reflections that cause acoustic interference, standing waves, and resonances, and those are what reduce the level of low frequencies that are produced in a room. When the reflections are reduced by applying bass traps, the frequency response within the room improves. And if all reflections were able to be removed, the response would be exactly as flat as if the walls did not exist at all."
 
I am just taking a stab at this, time alignment, and that is where many people that use external subs and distributed bass system will find their weakness. Using external active crossover with time delays one could theoretically compensate, and make the adjustments for it, but most people have neither the equipment or the knowledge on how to do it correctly, yet will still advance their opinion how much better distributed bass is or using subs to complement their monitors.

To electronically phase align the speakers is not hard as long as the drivers are quite close, just as many speakers manufactures physically align the driver to get their speakers time aligned. But when you start placing Subs quite some distance from the mids and hi frequency drivers, then you start creating situations where time alignment is going to be a bit more challenging.

Two of my subs sit against the rear wall about three feet behind me and about fifteen feet from the mains...be they colossal Infinity QLS-1's or itsy-bitsy Pioneer -22's. The bass is spot on regardless. Being a drummer for nearly three decades has made me highly sensitive to rhythmic errors...I'd notice if it were off.
 
Two of my subs sit against the rear wall about three feet behind me and about fifteen feet from the mains...be they colossal Infinity QLS-1's or itsy-bitsy Pioneer -22's. The bass is spot on regardless. Being a drummer for nearly three decades has made me highly sensitive to rhythmic errors...I'd notice if it were off.

Not if your ears have been off for three decades, or you accidently got them time aligned.:D
 
Get some online test tones, fire 'em up, and walk around. You'll hear suckouts and pileups, unless your room is perfect.

Perfect without analysis and treatment is possible but highly unlikely. I heard what I'm describing, and it has me considering diffusion.

Audio check is great for that.....

http://www.audiocheck.net/

....and I actually started a thread to make folks around here aware of that most excellent resource but the thread didn't even go one page. Priorities, you know.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=509197

Diffusion is not your answer. Well-type QRD's can offer some low frequency absorption, but bass trapping devices (they come in many forms) are what you need.

- Michael
 
I'm a bass player, so I like and need plenty of bass.

Like a few others here, I don't give a tinker's toss what the producer or musician intended. I got equalisers, loudness switches and tone controls so I can adjust the sound to how I like.

The producers and musicians may have had quite a bit more bass in mind than your system*** is able to reproduce without assistance form loudness switches, equalizers and tone controls. The additional bass you add with those devices/features may simply be compensating for what your room's acoustics are stealing. :yes:

***Room acoustics are part of "the system".
 
The producers and musicians may have had quite a bit more bass in mind than your system*** is able to reproduce without assistance form loudness switches, equalizers and tone controls. The additional bass you add with those devices/features may simply be compensating for what your room's acoustics are stealing. :yes:

***Room acoustics are part of "the system".

Fully agree.

However, it is easier and simpler to use the controls at my disposal to create the sound I want, rather than change speakers and or/re-arrange the walls (or speaker placement) in my house. We can only work within the limits imposed upon us by our systems and room acoustics.
 
I side with Ken on the time alignment issues. Both on distributed bass and near field subs.
 
Ethan Winer:

"There is a common myth that small rooms cannot reproduce low frequencies because they are not large enough for the waves to "develop" properly. While it is true that low frequencies have very long wavelengths - for example, a 30 Hz wave is nearly 38 feet long - there is no physical reason such long waves cannot exist within a room that is much smaller than that. What defines the dimensions of a room are the wall spacing and floor-to-ceiling height. Sound waves generated within a room either pass through the room boundaries, bounce off them, or are absorbed. In fact, all three of these often apply. That is, when a sound wave strikes a wall some of its energy may be reflected, some may be absorbed, and some may pass through to the outside.

When low frequencies are attenuated in a room, the cause is always canceling reflections. All that is needed to allow low frequency waves to sound properly and with a uniform frequency response is to remove or at least reduce the reflections. A popular argument is that low frequencies need the presence of a room mode that's low enough to "support" a given frequency. However, modes are not necessary for a wave to exist. As proof, any low frequency can be produced outdoors - and of course there are no room modes outdoors!

Here's a good way to look at the issue: Imagine you set up a high quality loudspeaker outdoors, play some low frequency tones, and then measure the frequency response five feet in front of the speaker. In this case the measured frequency response outdoors will be exactly as flat as the loudspeaker. Now wall in a small area, say 10x10x10 feet, using very thin paper, and measure the response again. The low frequencies are still present in this "room" because the thin paper is transparent at low frequencies and they pass right through. Now, make the walls progressively heavier using thick paper, then thin wood, then thicker wood, then sheet rock, and finally brick or cement. With each increase in wall density, reflections will cause cancellations within the room at ever-lower frequencies as the walls become massive enough to reflect the waves.

Therefore, it is reflections that cause acoustic interference, standing waves, and resonances, and those are what reduce the level of low frequencies that are produced in a room. When the reflections are reduced by applying bass traps, the frequency response within the room improves. And if all reflections were able to be removed, the response would be exactly as flat as if the walls did not exist at all."

Yeah, that's what I said... The reflections caused by the long soundwaves are problematic, causing peaks and dips in the frequency. So you need a) a much larger room or b) room treatments. You can get low bass in a small untreated room, but it is not going to be particularly flat, I found this out myself messing around with REW.
 
Yeah, that's what I said... The reflections caused by the long soundwaves are problematic, causing peaks and dips in the frequency. So you need a) a much larger room or b) room treatments. You can get low bass in a small untreated room, but it is not going to be particularly flat, I found this out myself messing around with REW.

Yep. You reminded me of this article so I thought I'd share.

I don't have much to add to the discussion every aspect is covered so well.
 
Ok now you have my interest, maybe someone can explain this better to me. How does being a player in a band allow a person to be more able to determine if a speaker is time aligned than say the person out in the venue that is in front of the speakers at the point where the time alignment was designed and engineered to arrive at the right time? In fact I would think that those in on the stage would not have any ablity to be able to determine that alignment of the drivers were aligned without actually leaving the stage taking test measurments at points on the floor out in front of the speaker.

Rhythmic errors, I don't know what role that has to do with the subject regarding phase alignment and getting the correct radiation pattern of a combination of two or more loudspeaker drivers.

But I would be interested in learning how.:scratch2:
 
Well, as someone that uses 3 subs, all in different locations, and mine are even ported, I'd have to side with Michael. I've never noticed any sort of time alignment issue with my subs.
 
Well, as someone that uses 3 subs, all in different locations, and mine are even ported, I'd have to side with Michael. I've never noticed any sort of time alignment issue with my subs.

Using what measurement tools? And please don't tell me your ears.
 
The reason I say that is how are you going to get the audio wave lobe timed correctly coming from various directions and all arriving at just the right time, were talking mill seconds. And with the drivers all at different locations I just don't know how your achieving such a task.
 
Using what measurement tools? And please don't tell me your ears.

I don't need to measure it if I don't notice it. Why would I need to know how many milliseconds any delay was if I don't notice it and therefore it doesn't bother me?

I'll take the huge benefits of multiple subwoofers, even if it includes inaudible low frequency delays. I also do trust what I actually hear vs others speculation of what they think is an issue.
 
The reason I say that is how are you going to get the audio wave lobe timed correctly coming from various directions and all arriving at just the right time, were talking mill seconds. And with the drivers all at different locations I just don't know how your achieving such a task.

My understanding of this so far:

You want your upper frequencies played with directivity to get the accurate soundstage. However, the lower frequencies spread in 360 degrees spherical and you want those enveloping you just like in live classical music concert venues (they have good bass everywhere you seat). You get this either by *standard speakers with bass woofers creating room reflections or use **distributed bass in acoustically treated room with no reflections and no standing waves. So you will be theoretically able to fool your mind you are hearing Teatro alla Scala di Milano and not your garage.

Hopefully, the more experienced guys here will correct me if I'm wrong with this.
 
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