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Arms without anti-skating (ATP-12T)

gouzos

gouzos

Active Member
I am about to receive a turntable equipped with an Audio Technica ATP-12T arm.

This arm seems decent enough but doesn't have any system for anti-skating compensation. Is a medium compensation already built in or is there absolutely no compensation? Is that even possible?

Any other comments on the arm are welcome.
 
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gouzos said:
I am about to receive a turntable equipped with an Audio Technica ATP-12T arm.

This arm seems decent enough but doesn't have any system for anti-skating compensation. Is a medium compensation already built in or is there absolutely no compensation? Is that even possible?

Any other comments on the arm are welcome.
Click to expand...

According to the owners manual there is no bias compensation adjustment (anti-skate), apparently in an attempt to simplify frequent operation of the tonearm.

Bill.
 
It is likely not "built in". Anti - skating compensation was a feature that became prominent relatively late in the evolution of the turntable. In fact, some modern tonearms / turntables (the VPI line comes to mind) includes anti-skating as an available option - for about $100 or so.

It should be noted that the ATP-12T was initially designed for professional applications. It is an excellent tonearm, but an anti-skate adjustment was likely not incorporated by design.
 
Paul,

It's a 9" tonearm. Very common fare in broadcast use. Excellent performing simple tonearm. Commonly paired with Technics SP-10, SP-15, and SP-25 turntables in that application. Installed many of them back in the day. I have used them with many different pickup cartridges including Shure V 15 Type IV with no issues.
 
It's on a TD-124 MkII I am waiting for. I didn't really know anything about the arm but it seems that an upgrade is far from immediately necessary.

It's also equipped with an AT-OC9.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Paul,

It's a 9" tonearm. Very common fare in broadcast use. Excellent performing simple tonearm. Commonly paired with Technics SP-10, SP-15, and SP-25 turntables in that application. Installed many of them back in the day. I have used them with many different pickup cartridges including Shure V 15 Type IV with no issues.
Click to expand...
Excellent performance with an arm without anti-skate? That's no surprise to me. I've disabled completely the mechs that I can, and have enjoyed better tracing ever since.

Personally, I believe AS is a feature added to appease consumer's complaints of the shortened arm's tendency to skate past the 1st 2" of the record when cued automatically. It has no other purpose, and does not improve tracing nor reduce stylus wear.

When I consider the physics behind the cause for the skating force, the AS solution employed seems only to compound tracing issues.
 

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I've got one of those tonearms and I never felt like it needed AS...
 
Arms Without Antiskate (ATP-12T)

I recently purchased the same arm and as I read up on it due to the weight of the arm (medium/heavy) antiskate was not necessary. With a Sumiko headshell (12-13 gr) and Denon DL-103 cartridge (8.5gr) I figure I'll have a good match. It saw a lot of use on pro TTs at radio stations and was also popular with home systems.
 
The skating force is some percentage of the tracking force.
It is depending on VTF and cartridge offset.

So for an arm with 22deg offset and a tracking force of 2g, the skating force is:
tan22deg*2g*40%= 0,3g (40% is an average value)

So if one uses or not uses antiskate seems not a big deal to me.
gusten
 
That's great news. So the arm is actually better than I thought.
Do you know if it uses standard headshells?

Any thoughts on the AT-OC9?
 
I have the same thing with my Pioneer PL-41. Considered a "professional application", it is a high mass arm with no anti-skate medium that likes a TF between 2 and 3 grams. I feel like it is an underrated arm in its own right.
 
OK I got one of these arms recently and it seems to work well EXCEPT... I've tried various Stanton carts (680EL and a 681, forget which variation) and they seem to not track as well. In fact, at the end of the record, they go sailing right onto the label! My Shure V-15 Type V did not have that problem. Anything I can do? Increase/decrease VTA? And what does the sliding piece do on the arm shaft? I'm guessing it's fine tuning the tracking force?
 
Sorry...

But I don't buy it...I see the principles listed and Gusten posted some very good math supporting this and there have been certain schools of thought that say anto-skate is irrelevant..

well, how about tangible proof otherwise?

We know that too much (excessive) or no anti-skate can be heard audibly to make a difference.

test - Mono record , system set for stereo , anti-skate (on arms requiring) set to zero , listen between the speakers to the mono record.

Do the channels sound equal or is the left channel louder ? Does a voice seem stronger on the left ? It should because AS is set to zero and there is less contact with the right wall. The right channel might sound dull.

Now set the AS as high as it will go. This time you will get the reverse effect.

Set it correctly and there will be total balance.

So if anti-skate has no effect, the why the audible difference ?

And why are some arms designed with no anti-skate ..I am guessing due to high VTF requirement (higher mass arms ) AND they may in fact have some bearing resistance that makes them (purposely ) less free floating.

Its school of thought folks ...manufacturers did not add anti-skate to over 90% of tables because it cost less..THEY HAD TO...with the advent of lighter arm masses, different tables.

Do you see antiskate on old old tables (50's, early 60's) ..No ..because the arms were like steel rebar...heavy and made to track heavy..

So sorry to go against the grain (ha ha pun intended) but taking the minority school of thought that anto-skate is irrelelvant just doesnt make sense.

test it yourself. If you are happy there is no audible difference, then feel free to set yours to zero, throw away and suspended weights..etc.

:yes:
 
Garrard201 said:
OK I got one of these arms recently and it seems to work well EXCEPT... I've tried various Stanton carts (680EL and a 681, forget which variation) and they seem to not track as well. In fact, at the end of the record, they go sailing right onto the label! My Shure V-15 Type V did not have that problem. Anything I can do? Increase/decrease VTA? And what does the sliding piece do on the arm shaft? I'm guessing it's fine tuning the tracking force?
Click to expand...
The piece on the arm is for setting VTF once you have leveled the arm, not just fine-tuning. The lines across the arm read out as half-gram increments. Works just fine. I've run a 681 on my arm with no problems at all. Very nice arm. The only drawback I see is the lack of cuing for the ham-fisted. Even there a solution is available as to be found in one of the other threads lately. Jelco makes a lifter that can be adapted for the purpose.
 
My 10.5" VPI arm has no antiskate beyond a twist in the wires connecting it to the table. Works like a champ. So it's not just old arms like my Empire has.
 
Back in the good old days when most cartridges were with spherical styli or early elliptical, bias adjustments made all the difference in the world. As I remember at least 15 to 20% of my records benefitted greatly from anti skating. Ortofons MC needed all the help they could get. Not so much when Stantons 681eee came along or Shures V-15's. Empires and early Audio Technika needed help. Adusting the skating allowed you to track some records you couldn't before or allowed you to reduce your tracking pressure by up to 33% and maintain low distortion on the inner grooves impossible before. I even decided to try straight line tracking Marantz, B&O and Revox turntables and they all made a big improvment over the early Ortofon arms, 9 or 12 "with out Anti Skating. I finally stayed with a Rabco SL8E on my thorens TD 125. The Marantz was a mechanical nightmare, the B&O had tone arm screw drive issues and the REVOX didn't allow me to use the cartridges I wanted. The Dynavector 20 HO I use now is such an improvement over the Stantons, Shures And Ortofons I've had, that I guess I'm hooked. Going back and listening to my Sheffields, Original Masters and Telarc LP's is a revalation.
 
Garrard201 said:
OK I got one of these arms recently and it seems to work well EXCEPT... I've tried various Stanton carts (680EL and a 681, forget which variation) and they seem to not track as well. In fact, at the end of the record, they go sailing right onto the label! My Shure V-15 Type V did not have that problem. Anything I can do? Increase/decrease VTA? And what does the sliding piece do on the arm shaft? I'm guessing it's fine tuning the tracking force?
Click to expand...
Just as fiddlefye says. The user's manual is available on Vinylengine and will tell you how to set up and adjust your arm. It's no wonder that you had problems with 680s: they are light trackers, sensitive to skating, especially with a very heavy arm like the ATP12T. If you want that arm to work well, give it a heavy tracker like a Stanton 500, a DL103, a SPU, in short any broadcast or DJ cartridge. It's surprising that the V15 seemed to work, I gave it a shot on my own ATP12T but skating and wobbling were way off the scale - well, at least it did not skip with the brush down. The Jico stylus may have made a difference, it appears very compliant.

BTW the reason why the ATP12T doesn't have antiskating is that it is not necessary when the VTF is high. With light trackers running at 1g it is critical.
 
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