ARXA just arrived!

[Divotdog]

After unpacking and initial inspection;
The good, :thmbsp: Oiled walnut base in good shape, AR logo still attached, headshell in good shape, wiring to tonearm seems to be intact, gray paint on the plinth is great.
The bad, :thumbsdn: two motor model, main motor is not turning, Viton bearings.
This is going to be a fun project! DDArch I will be joining your site very soon, it looks very informative.

 

[ZebraBlvd]

You are on your way now DD. :yes:

Let me know how some of those mods we talked about come out. If you decide to employ any of them on this table.

Give me a PM on that motor and any information on it. I have one of the motors for the AR two motor tables. Just can't remember if it is the main or the startup motor.

 

[Divotdog]

PM sent your way ZB :thmbsp:
As I get into it a little farther, the bearing well for the platter seems pretty good, however the well for the TA was bound up pretty tight, so it might be a candidate for a new TA.

 

[Eunomians]

Glad to hear about AR turntables gettin' some love.

 

[Divotdog]

Update

Finally have a motor on its way, Thanks to a couple of fine AK members, only charge is a donation to AK, I think that I can handle that, In the meantime I took the platter over to a machinist buddy as it was pitted, he turned it and balanced it to within an inch (or ounce) of its life, it came out very nice, just doing some final polishing on it now, nothing left to do now except rewire the TA, build a new plinth, replace the springs, ect. ect. ect. :scratch2:

 

[ddarch]

Hope you are taking some digital pics along the way!

Dave

 

[SPL db]

Sounds like you're doing a great job on the AR DD! :yes:

Plus one on the picture documentation!

So, is the little granddaughter helping out like she promised? :thmbsp:

Scott

 

[Eunomians]

Great news about the motor.

I don't think that you need to replace the springs if they still work (still in shape). If they are not in shape, remove 'em and reshape 'em. You can remove the foam inside of them though, it is useless.

Enjoy your TA.

 

[Divotdog]

So, is the little granddaughter helping out like she promised? :thmbsp:

Scott

She is all over it :thmbsp: Just thought I would throw up a couple of pics of the polished outer platter so far, we machined this down a hair, and balanced it to a nats a$$

 

[ejfud]

Very nice.

The motor I'm shipping will go out Monday.

Gary

 

[Divotdog]

Gary PM your way

 

[Russellc]

Great news about the motor.

I don't think that you need to replace the springs if they still work (still in shape). If they are not in shape, remove 'em and reshape 'em. You can remove the foam inside of them though, it is useless.

Enjoy your TA.

The original springs are too short. Use anthomy's extended studs and Linn springs. Much improved bounce, and much greater range of adjustment, expecially useful as you add mods that add weight. Plus, the locking wing nuts make adjustments a snap and they stay set.

Russellc

 

[Eunomians]

I've revamped so many XA's and the stock springs are good enough, even if you use fairly lightweight clamps. The foam is useless though. I've heard the pros & cons with regards to Anthony's springs from fellow XA owners. I would love to mod my XA Scillia-style, but the XA is fantastic in stock form. I'll save the Merril/Scillia mods for any of the 80s AR TTs. Now those are worth the mods. JMHO.

 

[Divotdog]

I'e revamped so many XA's and the stock springs are good enough. The foam is useless though. I've heard the pros & cons with regards to Anthony's springs from fellow XA owners. I would love to mod my XA Scillia-style, but the XA is fantastic in stock form. I'll save the Merril/Scillia mods for any of the 80s AR TTs. Now those are worth the mods. JMHO.

I have heard some of the pros of this mod, can you give some of the cons that you have heard, as this is the first mod that I am considering :scratch2:

 

[Russellc]

I have heard some of the pros of this mod, can you give some of the cons that you have heard, as this is the first mod that I am considering :scratch2:

While mine are on a mid 80's AR the Turntable, I dont know of any cons. The ARs are famous for being very difficult to get proper bounce. One of the reasons is the very short springs. George Merrill thought it needed to be done, and I for one trust his expertise. Once your sub chassis is properly adjusted and leveled, have a look at the spring next to the tonearm. You will see it is almost completely compressed. If you add any kind of weight to it, i.e. clamp or clamping weight that is heavy, you will have no spring play. In later models of the Merrill Heirloom, there was an adjustable weight to help compensate for this. The three springs aren't similarly loaded, so straight up and down bounce is neigh on impossible. Another thing, with the extra adjustment range with the longer springs, you can not only get better bounce by not having the tonearm location spring bound, but I notice a "tuneability" that didnt exist with the stock springs. You can level the subchassis with the springs at varying degrees of tightness, which affects the overall tone. Another very underrated mod is the lead mat. There has been some pro con banter on this forum before concerning its use on the stock platters, but I found, in my setup, it to be a very large improvement over the original felt, herbies or the ringmat, all of which I have on hand. The first mods I did were the springs & studs, delrin arm board, lead mat and new tone arm....this was a MAJOR improvement over the stock unit. With your table, a little surgery is required to change out arms. Dont get me wrong, the stock springs can work, as others have said, but it is so cheap to do I would consider it a no brainer. Not only greater range of adjustment and its inherent tunability I spoke of, but the locking wingnuts, (which could be used with the standard studs and springs) make adjustment with finger tips very easy, and they stay put. Again, I cant think of a reason not to do the studs and springs, after all, you could just tighten them to the point of being as bound as the originals were. As other have also said, the foams are useless and should be removed anyway. they were sort of meant to provide a similar dampening as a cars shock absorber did for the suspension springs....this was an effort to help with foot falls, which it doesnt....unfortunately, it also short circuits the springs ability to isolate. Remove them and place the table on a wall mount.

Russellc

 

[Eunomians]

Russellc makes some very great points with respect to various mods. And, once again, if I had an 80s AR TT, I would go full throttle with as many mods as possible. This includes a lead platter despite the debate. The lead platter on my buddy's ETL-1 is insane, so are all the other Scillia mods. Killer TT to die for, and (again my opinion) it puts an LP-12 to shame.

Ok, now back to the XA.

There are no cons to upgrading the springs, please excuse my earlier remark in saying that there were pros & cons... Yes, it could be nice to have more easily adjustable springs, but the stock springs are easy enough to adjust. Plus, if you plan on using a heavy clamp on the XA, you should actually be buying another TT. The reasoning here is that the Hayden motor is not a big fan of the extra strain imposed upon it with a heavy clamp. With that said, you still can use a clamp, just not a very heavy one. And, adjusting the springs for this extra weight is easy enough. I highly recommend that you use multiple excellent-quality bubble levels and a straightedge level to do the job accurately.

You could modify the arm board and platter chassis so that you could use your arm of choice, etc, but... It's an XA or TA, and in the end, the XA, TA & XB are wholly unique & simple beasts. They work wonderfully in stock form once set up properly. In fact, they could quite possibly run forever if the proper maintenance is fulfilled.

You could improve certain aspects of the XA/TA/XB such as removing the Delrin damping on the arm, adjust the overhang properly, lube up that platter bearing and tone arm pivot, balance the platter, adjust springs, remove spring foam, slap Dynamat or any other anti-resonant material under the plinth, add your choice of new isolation feet, a slab of marble under the feet with more isolation feet, remove the particle board bottom, rewire the arm, add gold-tipped RCA connectors, etc...

Get yourself an excellent cartridge, too. It seems like the XA prefers Shure cartridges. A V15 VxMR will make your jaw drop on this TT. So would a M-91ED or a M97xE.

By the way Russellc, my next purchase is an 80s AR TT once again

Cheers, gentlemen.


The timeless simplicity & elegance of the XA is a wonder in this day and age...

 

[Divotdog]

Two very interesting points of view, and arguments to go either way, now just to throw a little bit more into the mix, when I bought this particular TT I was initially thinking mod, so I bought a rough TT.

Consideration no.1, this TT has the delrin TA well, so I am assuming that I am going to have to either change the TA (thus removing the well) or change the sub chassis in order to get to the performance level that I am looking for.

Consideration no.2 the sub chassis itself is stamped steel, rather than the cast seen on later models, I am not sure if this is a bad thing or not. :scratch2:

I would certainly like to see your opinions on this :thmbsp:

Thanks
Mel

 

[PeterFCassidy]

There is a reason AR decks endure . . .

. . . and that is that they give you almost 100% of the sound you want with non-exotic materials and technologies. I had my 77XB in the shop a couple of times, once for repair, headshell modifications, plinth dampening, tone arm tuning and fitting with a good Stanton cartridge and stylus - and once to fix a channel drop-out (accidental grounding in the arm) and for fine-tuning of the headshell and arm again.

Now that I've run 50 or so records through the deck, worn in the stylus and gotten the last of the alignments just right, the table simply astounds. The direct drive table is getting very jealous.

Peter

Russellc makes some very great points with respect to various mods. And, once again, if I had an 80s AR TT, I would go full throttle with as many mods as possible. This includes a lead platter despite the debate. The lead platter on my buddy's ETL-1 is insane, so are all the other Scillia mods. Killer TT to die for, and (again my opinion) it puts an LP-12 to shame.

Ok, now back to the XA.

There are no cons to upgrading the springs, please excuse my earlier remark in saying that there were pros & cons... Yes, it could be nice to have more easily adjustable springs, but the stock springs are easy enough to adjust. Plus, if you plan on using a heavy clamp on the XA, you should actually be buying another TT. The reasoning here is that the Hayden motor is not a big fan of the extra strain imposed upon it with a heavy clamp. With that said, you still can use a clamp, just not a very heavy one. And, adjusting the springs for this extra weight is easy enough. I highly recommend that you use multiple excellent-quality bubble levels and a straightedge level to do the job accurately.

You could modify the arm board and platter chassis so that you could use your arm of choice, etc, but... It's an XA or TA, and in the end, the XA, TA & XB are wholly unique & simple beasts. They work wonderfully in stock form once set up properly. In fact, they could quite possibly run forever if the proper maintenance is fulfilled.

You could improve certain aspects of the XA/TA/XB such as removing the Delrin damping on the arm, adjust the overhang properly, lube up that platter bearing and tone arm pivot, balance the platter, adjust springs, remove spring foam, slap Dynamat or any other anti-resonant material under the plinth, add your choice of new isolation feet, a slab of marble under the feet with more isolation feet, remove the particle board bottom, rewire the arm, add gold-tipped RCA connectors, etc...

Get yourself an excellent cartridge, too. It seems like the XA prefers Shure cartridges. A V15 VxMR will make your jaw drop on this TT. So would a M-91ED or a M97xE.

By the way Russellc, my next purchase is an 80s AR TT once again

Cheers, gentlemen.


The timeless simplicity & elegance of the XA is a wonder in this day and age...

 

[Eunomians]

Mmm, the Delrin tonearm will not sound bad provided that it does not pivot from side to side a heck of a lot. The real annoyance with the Delrin tonearm is that it will, many eons from now, eventually wear out. But so will everything else on this planet. I suggest at least disabling the damping action on it though by removing the Delrin pin. Instructions for this mod are in the L.A. Audiophile Magazine as posted in Ddarch's fabulous site www.vinylnirvana.com (Where would all of us AR TT folks be without Vinyl Nirvana!!! :thmbsp: )

I don't think that there could possibly be any audibly detectable difference with either sub chassis (perhaps with a stethascope, yes).

If you are trying to achieve "incredible" performance from your TA, I suggest that you properly set it up in stock form and take it from there. Get used to how is performs and sounds. Make sure that you set it up perfectly, with a new Shure cartridge with a new stylus. It has to a be good one, like a new M97xE. Run a slew of good quality clean clean clean LPs on it.

Then get a lightweight clamp. Readjust everything on the TT and repeat the listening process again.

Only after all of this will you begin to hear the limitations of the TT. It is hard to find limitations if the TT is set up properly. The old ARs are that good. But of course, there are some things that can only help. By this I mean, isolation and vibration solutions, such as new feet, Dynamat under the plinth, etc. I do think that in the end, the real limitations will be with the cartridge. Like I said, a V15 VxMr will make you pass out hard onto the floor if properly set up on an a TA/XA/XB - but so will its price tag!

PeterFCassidy is right. The AR turntables are built to last and sound extraordinary in essentially stock form because they are so simple; and ultimately, so well-designed.

Cheers

 

[Russellc]

Yes, to points of view. Valid points are made, the original is a classic, and many want it as is, simply restored. Myself, I prefer to go a little farther, as there is a lot of improvement to be had. Sort of sounds likr the original poster has one needing lots of attention, so maybe the more extensive mods are desired? the table will obviously work in stock restored condition, but it can also be just as good as the mid 80's tables, it just requires a bit more adapting, whereas most of this stuff is bolt on for the mid 80s models. The extra weight is really not a problem motor wise, I would change out the motor for the newer Hurst motor. Much more torque, and only requires mounting holes. The process has been covered well on the vinyl engine AR forum. Plus, on the vinyl nirvana site, the instructions from George Merrill on his improvements to this motor are now being revealed. Tightens up the slop in the bearing and makes the motor much quieter. For a fine example of an early modded AR, see Anthony Scillia's "Heirloomette" on the vinyl nirvana site. this is how I like them. No, its not much like the original anymore, nor does it sound like one anymore either! Its really your choice. the original sounds nice, but lets face it.....this table was designed as a price point compromise..... It can be made to sound so much better it is ridiculous.....you can live with the compromises if you wish, or you can push further, your choice. The two points all seem to be in agreement on are the mid 80s models are easier to mod, and the Shure V15Vxmr is an excellent choice for the AR
.
regardless of whether it is stock or modded.

Russellc