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AT-95EX Resonance Issue

Trekkie4

Trekkie4

Retired Member
Here's a totally random thread. TBH, I kinda hesitated to post it in here, mainly due to all the negativity & hate for Hanpin-made turntables out there. I'm already going through a very dark part of my life & don't need any more negative energy my way (in fact, music is one of the few remaining things to lift me up, so to speak), but at this stage I'm running out of ideas & options.


So anyway, enough rambling - here's the story... I upgraded my AT-95E cartridge to 95EX by swapping out the stylus (which sounds absolutely amazing by the way) and things had been going pretty normal. Until one day, when I put on Pink Floyd album, "The Wall" on my AT-LP140XP. It started out OK, sounded pretty good in fact! When I noticed that the tonearm (headshell, in particular) is shaking. Actually, the vibrations got severe at one point, the entire cartridge began to violently shake while playing the first song on the second, "B" side of the first record. And then it once again did the same thing while playing the first song on other, 2nd record from the album ... but once again, ONLY during the first song.


I checked out everything I could, made sure that the stylus is clean, headshell properly aligned (I'll talk about that later on), etc, etc. Nothing! So I decided to get in touch with Audio Technica representatives (their support service actually) & ask for advice. Seeing that it's their turntable, their headshell (AT-HS10) and their cartridge & stylus, they would know what to do ... right? Weell, the guy who answered my support ticket was extremely polite & detailed, I have to give him a credit for all the time & patience, but unfortunately even after the entire week of exchanged emails we couldn't work out what exactly is going on there. So, to save you guys some time & patience, here are the facts (that we established so far):

1. Resonance ONLY happens while playing the outer band, first (and sometimes second) song on the record. But then, as it moves closer to the center it calms down.

2. None of the other albums in my collection seem to exhibit the same issue. And I've been playing tons of albums recently, from Dire Straits (Brothers in Arms) to movie soundtracks from Indiana Jones (by John Williams) Again, 95EX plays perfectly fine & does a very good job if I may say so.

3. AT-95EX is not the only cartridge in my collection to resonate & shake that way. I also have VM-95E (VMN 95E stylus, fitted inside "XP" Series DJ cartridge) which more-less behaves the same way. Both cartridges track at exactly 2g, with the AS set to "2"

4. Low compliant AT-3600L (tracking at 2.5g) although showing SOME, minimal resonance is more-less stable & does not appear to be as affected as AT-95 & VM95E. Not even close, actually!

5. Highly compliant Shure M75ED/Type 2, that is currently fitted with Japanese Jico aftermarket replacement (0.3x0.7 mil) shows NO resonance, whatsoever. And it tracks at 1.5g with the same AS.

6. All the above-mentioned cartridges are properly squared, aligned & double-checked according to custom-generated arc protractor, made from provided technical information, online (effective arm length, overhang)

7. Tracking force was/is confirmed through a digital gauge. AS on the other hand feels more estimated. Probably somewhat stronger than indicated, so for example "2.0" would be closer to "2.2", "2.3" in real life. But for the sake of simplicity, I keep the AS at the same value as VTF.

8. I was asked by AT to check & confirm the tonearm bearings. I couldn't feel any play or movement there, and it appears to be rock solid. No surprises there, I never had any other problems with LP140.

At this point, AT support got puzzled. My "case" will be sent to Japanese HQ for further testing & they promised to get back to me once they work out the cause behind this. In the meantime, I would like to ask someone who maybe owns AT-LP5 (with AT-95EX cartridge) or AT-LP140 with either AT-95 or VM95 cartridge to give it a try with "The Wall" & see what happens?
 
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gusten said:
A little too much warps on the record. This can happen but it´s rare.
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Maybe, IDK. I doubt however, because I also have several other records which are either warped or off-center. And AT95EX plays them fine, without any issues whatsoever.

johnjhazel said:
I know zero about Hanpin turntables. What is the effective mass of the tonearm ?
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Not sure about the mass, but the effective arm length is 230.5mm and the overhang is 16mm.

And these numbers do check out, not only I generated a protractor which fits LP140 down to a mm, but it also confirmed that the original headshell, with pre-installed XP3 cartridge was properly aligned at the factory.
 
Trekkie4 said:
Maybe, IDK. I doubt however, because I also have several other records which are either warped or off-center. And AT95EX plays them fine, without any issues whatsoever.


Not sure about the mass, but the effective arm length is 230.5mm and the overhang is 16mm.

And these numbers do check out, not only I generated a protractor which fits LP140 down to a mm, but it also confirmed that the original headshell, with pre-installed XP3 cartridge was properly aligned at the factory.
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I was wondering if the effective mass is too high for the compliance of certain needles. That is quite a dance that the tonearm does.
 
johnjhazel said:
I was wondering if the effective mass is too high for the compliance of certain needles. That is quite a dance that the tonearm does.
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Right, got it. I suppose I could ask them (AT support), since I couldn't find any reference to effective mass online. Otherwise, technical specs for AT-LP140 are available HERE

But here's the thing. Both the LP140 & LP120X (not the older model however, LP120 USB) seem to share the same tonearm assembly in common. In fact, LP120X is distributed with VM-95E cartridge, where on the other hand LP140 comes with AT-XP3 because AT imagined it to be a "DJ" deck, rather than HiFi one. So the LP140 should be compatible with VM95 straight out of the factory because that was their cartridge of choice to begin with. And besides, both VM95E & XP3 are mutually interchangeable, with the only notable difference being output voltage. "XP" body uses different coils, so therefore the rated output voltage for VMN 95 stylus will be somewhat higher. Around 5.5mV, to be exact.
 
I reread your first post in this thread. I wish I had a definitie answer for you but I do not. If it only does it on one record it could be a warp that is subtle but
repetitive around the circumference of the record. As if the stylus/cartridge/tonearm does not get a chance to recover from the first warp encountered before the next warp comes along. I think if it were anything with your turntable/tonearm/cartridge/needle it would happen on all records.
 
OK, so we have two "votes" for warps... But here's the million dollar question - if it really is because of the warps, then how come only the outer band is affected and not the entire record? And furthermore, how come the Shure M75 holds still where on the other hand AT95 series gets all crazy & out of control? Shouldn't it be other way around - M75 being highly compliant more sensitive to warps & AT-95 less, and therefore more suitable for warps?
 
Trekkie4 said:
OK, so we have two "votes" for warps... But here's the million dollar question - if it really is because of the warps, then how come only the outer band is affected and not the entire record? And furthermore, how come the Shure M75 holds still where on the other hand AT95 series gets all crazy & out of control? Shouldn't it be other way around - M75 being highly compliant more sensitive to warps & AT-95 less, and therefore more suitable for warps?
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The first question is easy. The warp may only be around the outer part of the record. Also, even though the record is always revolving at the same speed, the groove portion beneath the needle is traveling faster at the outer portion of the record as opposed to farther in. Maybe the second question is not so difficult. The Shure needle may have better damping.
 
Trekkie4 said:
OK, so we have two "votes" for warps... But here's the million dollar question - if it really is because of the warps, then how come only the outer band is affected and not the entire record? And furthermore, how come the Shure M75 holds still where on the other hand AT95 series gets all crazy & out of control? Shouldn't it be other way around - M75 being highly compliant more sensitive to warps & AT-95 less, and therefore more suitable for warps?
Click to expand...

It doesn't really work that way, also it could even be that with the Shure the resonance frequency of the arm/cart combo is 7Hz and with the less compliant AT95 it's 10Hz, but in that particular record, the warp happens to excite that 10Hz resonance but not the 7Hz of the Shure.

On the bright side, at least you seem to be getting excellent service :)
 
cgutz said:
I find on many of my turntables (not AT) that the antiskate settings are calibrated too high. Have you tried dialing antiskate down to about 1/2 or so vtf?
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Sorry, I completely missed your post earlier... Like I said in my original post, I got other worries right now, and 95EX resonance is only (and least) one of them at the moment.

That being said, no - haven't tried reducing the AS. Maybe I should however ... there was a lot of talk about AS on Audio Technica turntables, and so after all that hype with AT-LP120-USB Audio Technica (Hanpin) apparently wanted to make sure that the weak anti-skate mechanism never becomes an issue again. So they really bumped it up! Maybe even too much because it seems to be on a more powerful side, sometimes even too powerful (even though the actual knob dial is set to "2").

And so because of that I've experienced the situation where the arm backed off from the lead-in groove, and almost flew off the platter if it wasn't for the "lip" on the edge. This only happened on one album so far, but it does indicate a potential issue if I'm not being careful enough.

That being said, I never considered the possibility of AS causing/playing part in this issue. I'll give it a try, & report back!

muovimies said:
It doesn't really work that way, also it could even be that with the Shure the resonance frequency of the arm/cart combo is 7Hz and with the less compliant AT95 it's 10Hz, but in that particular record, the warp happens to excite that 10Hz resonance but not the 7Hz of the Shure.

On the bright side, at least you seem to be getting excellent service :)
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Actually, I believe that most of my cartridges resonate at around 8Hz, at least according to Shure Sound Obstacle test record. Not sure about M75 in particular, but maybe I should give it a try & see what happens. I DO know for the fact that both AT-95E AT-VM95E resonate the most around 6-8Hz.
 
I had an ats13 conical do that are 3 grams tracking, never did it with a phanstiehl elliptical at 2 grams. It must be damping in the stylus itself. The xp stylus is rated 2-4 grams so you're running it too light. The atn95ex is probably defective.
 
oldman54 said:
I had an ats13 conical do that are 3 grams tracking, never did it with a phanstiehl elliptical at 2 grams. It must be damping in the stylus itself. The xp stylus is rated 2-4 grams so you're running it too light. The atn95ex is probably defective.
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No, I'm not using XP stylus to begin with (it's sitting in my desk drawer, still brand new & never used), just the generator aka the cartridge body.

The "VM", "XP" cartridge is VM95E, with the green stylus & tracks at 2 grams. Pretty much like your standard VM95E except this one uses different coils & therefore has much more powerful output (around 5.5mV) but that's beside the point. Where on the other hand, the old cartridge is AT-95EX (started out as green 95E, then got upgraded to red "EX") and also tracks at 2 grams. That being said - I don't think that it's defective, since both VM95E and 95EX behave the same way. And only just when playing "The Wall" ... Maybe AT doesn't like Pink Floyd? ;)

But you may be right about one thing... The only major difference between 95E & 95EX is the suspension. Because both styli are the same, 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical with the output of 3.5mV. And it's been said (and confirmed) by Audio Technica that the new technologies developed & featured in AT-95EX (and therefore LP5 turntable) were used, incorporated into the new VM95 series. So, it is only safe to say that VM95E & AT 95EX have a LOT in common, a lot more actually than the old & green AT-95E so it's hardly a surprise that both of these exhibit the same issue.
 
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Small, but aggressive warps can cause problems like that. It's more than likely the record that is the issue. From the video I can tell the record is warped.
 
patient_ot said:
Small, but aggressive warps can cause problems like that. It's more than likely the record that is the issue. From the video I can tell the record is warped.
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Yes, you're right. Both records from the album are warped, but none of them are "standing out", as in obvious at first glance. Hmm, now I just have to come up with the way to flatten them.
 
On utube I saw a guy use 2 pcs glass and a heat gun, haven't tried it yet. I have the glass and have tried the sun technique with some success and failures. He heats the bottom glass, heavy paper both sides of lp. Put on top glass, heat add weight, leave it. Looked it up, vinyl starts to warp at 145 degrees. Some do it in the oven. I've had lps get flat just being put in a row of albums that are tight.
 
cgutz said:
I find on many of my turntables (not AT) that the antiskate settings are calibrated too high. Have you tried dialing antiskate down to about 1/2 or so vtf?
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My AT 140xp as is 1 and vft 2 for vm95e. Tracks anything great and sounds great. Replaced AT-XP3 stylus with 95e stylus. Best tracking cartridge I’ve used ever.
 
56RETROGRADE said:
My AT 140xp as is 1 and vft 2 for vm95e. Tracks anything great and sounds great. Replaced AT-XP3 stylus with 95e stylus. Best tracking cartridge I’ve used ever.
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Actually, I don't like the VM95E all that much. It doesn't sound as clear as the original, nor does it appears to be as detailed as 95EX. Also, there is an issue with the output voltage - although I prefer higher output cartridges for some of my albums, there are moments when I find those 5.5mV overwhelming, too much "in your face" so to speak. That being said, I'm definitely keeping it as a backup to 95EX and Shure M75 :)
 
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