Automatic vs. Manual TT's

[Sansui Louie]

I own a couple of Pioneer PL-550's (Manual) and PL-570's (fully automatic version of the 550).

I've often heard that automatic turntables are inferior to manual ones, but I'll be damned if I can hear a difference. Perhaps, going up the ladder of high end, they cease to *make* an automatic counterpart, in which case at a certain point only manual turntables are an option...but I can't find a sonic reason why the 550 should be preferred over the 570.

Thoughts?

 

[leepal]

I wouldn't have thought there was any difference sonically with an auto TT, unless the arm height is fixed which may limit the cartridges that could be used with it.

 

[Sansui Louie]

I wouldn't have thought there was any difference sonically with an auto TT, unless the arm height is fixed which may limit the cartridges that could be used with it.

In my case, arm height is adjustable on both.

I should clarify that I am not talking about multiple play (changer) turntables, but single play, automatic defined as either auto-return at the end of the record, or automatic as in push a button and the record starts, plays and the arm returns at the end.

The 550 is fully manual. All done by fumblefingers me. The 570 is fully auto, including a repeat feature.

 

[jancumps]

...I should clarify that I am not talking about multiple play (changer) turntables, but single play, automatic defined as either auto-return at the end of the record, or automatic as in push a button and the record starts, plays and the arm returns at the end.....

I don't hear differences between manual, automatic or changer.

 

[Edriz]

Hi Louis, long time no see buddy! Nice to see you back
I have 2 Pioneer Tables, the PL-200 which is semi auto and the PL-600 which is fully auto. I also have my beloved Sanyo-Q50 Plus Series (now in use) that is also fully auto. Up until a few months ago, I had and loved an Empire 598III which as we all know is ful manual. I really loved that TT but with my hands, can no longer deal with a ful manual. Sound Quality between the Sanyo and Empire were both awesome. Nothing that would make me want to stick with Manual. Only real difference is it seemed I could get a bit more volumn out of the Empire before I got any acoustic feedback. Both of my full auto tables and the Empire were about as silent as you could get. For me, I see no significant difference.

 

[ferninando]

IMO "auto" is only during start/stop/arm cue and not during play while the platter spins. then it's only the tonearm/cartridge that impacts the sound. Others mite disagree.

 

[Homerx]

Only thing I can think of is the audible mechanical noise some make between or at the end of a record. which could be picked up by the cartridge and arm. during playback i can't think of anything. If anything its the simplicity of a manual that causes less potential for noise being passed.

going from a manual to semi-auto. I wouldn't go back just makes thing a lot safer on that needle/stylus.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Better automatics are excellent. But manual tables are simpler as a rule and less to repair when they go wrong. And better manuals give you choice of tonearms and even plinth options. But every record lover who is able to, should know how to manually handle a tonearm (I have since I was little, and handled delicate manual arms without cueing since 1973).

 

[Doug G.]

The sonic differences between manual and automatic turntables have always been mostly theoretical rather than practical.

Doug

 

[beej]

To be honest I can't detect any sonic differences between my SL1200, mk2 and my PL-9.

 

[Balifly]

I own a couple of Pioneer PL-550's (Manual) and PL-570's (fully automatic version of the 550).

I've often heard that automatic turntables are inferior to manual ones, but I'll be damned if I can hear a difference. Perhaps, going up the ladder of high end, they cease to *make* an automatic counterpart, in which case at a certain point only manual turntables are an option...but I can't find a sonic reason why the 550 should be preferred over the 570.

Thoughts?

In this case the longer tone arm of the Pioneer PL-570 may have made up the difference.

The Pioneer PL-550 is manual but has a slightly shorter tone arm.

PL-570 : 237mm tone arm length

PL-550 : 221mm tone arm length

 

[UncleAng]

The sonic differences between manual and automatic turntables has always been mostly theoretical rather than practical.

Doug

Correct! It dates back to the 50's when we had changers which are a far cry from 70's and onward TT's. That said the minimalist way of thinking still prevails in many circles.

 

[bobaloniny]

Its all about stigma. As pointed out, its just a diff of how many extra pieces are under the deck,given all else is equal.

 

[JohnVF]

You can make a better, less hollow, more rigid plinth when there aren't a bunch of moving parts for automatic operation. I've almost always found that simpler sounds better in turntables, the one exception being my Mitsubishi LT-30, which is not simple but still very well built. My Pioneer PL-570 and PL-630 are nice but neither sound as good as my very simple VPI, where simple physics reigns supreme. The 570 in particular seems to suffer from its big hollow plinth. The 630 is a nice sounding table but its not being used right now- my 2 manuals (Sony 2251, VPI Classic) and Mitsubishi linear tracker beat it sonically.

Also, certain arms don't lend themselves to automatic use. Unipivots and the Well Tempered Record Player come to mind.

 

[1tumbleweed]

Correct! It dates back to the 50's when we had changers which are a far cry from 70's and onward TT's.

I'll agree with that. In the Bad Old Days, even single-play automatics had some sort of linkage to the auto-return or auto-stop mechanism all the time, which could affect arm movement. From about the middle of the '70s, almost all such designs effectively removed any "automatic" assistance from the arm during play.

That said, I used to have a Micro Seiki that somehow got it into its head that when I moved the arm from one cut to another thought it was the end of the record and went into auto-return-and-shut-off mode. Drove me nuts.

 

[DougMac]

The sonic differences between manual and automatic turntables has always been mostly theoretical rather than practical.

Doug

This is not the only case where this applies. I read tons of posts where I think folks are "straining at gnats". For instance, they want to spend hundreds of dollars on speaker wire where for the same money a speaker upgrade would provide an actual benefit.

The other Doug.

 

[ETI_5000]

Particularly with cheaper auto or semi-auto units, because the auto return was tripped manually via a trip mechanism, sound quality at the end of records could be compromised by a slight sideways force on the tonearm near the end of the record. But most of the more expensive models had switching that was done optically (LED or light bulb and photo/diode or transistor), and so didn’t compromise performance mechanically.

There is some slight advantage in being able to choose to fit any tonearm to a manual turntable, and perhaps an advantage in being able to make the base more solid in the places where the automatic parts were fitted in the base of an auto turntable, but most people would struggle to hear any difference.

 

[kermit z]

I never hear any difference with my Auto, Semi, and manual tables. Simplicity of course plays a roll here. Auto, and semi make sounds that come thru at the end of the records. So does the stylus bumping along in the run out....Same diff.

 

[JohnVF]

I think the differences are more apparent at the ends of each spectrum. On one end you have changers. I've never heard one that didn't have some compromise in the sound, though I like the Elac 50H. On the other end you have manual tables who's build would not at all allow for the inclusion of the moving parts, etc, of an automatic system. Look at the big layered plinth builds, or the VPI Classic. The designs of those tables, with large solid plinths and no-compromise arms, makes automatic features nearly impossible.

People are saying they don't hear the difference between tables of the same series that are manual and automatic, and then extrapolating that knowledge to apply to ALL turntables. It doesn't work like that. It is at the extremes where big differences are going to be heard. Comparing the PL-550 to a PL-570 is not going to show you the differences between manual and automatics. Compare a Garrard 301 in an 80lb solid plinth to a changer, or even the PL-570. Its a different story.

I still like my LT-30, though. It sounds extraordinary. But even it could benefit from a more solid plinth- and that is easier with a manual table than an extremely complicated linear tracker.

Just my thoughts. I see little benefit from an automatic table and some inherent compromise even if its just in theory, though its nice to have the arm lift at the end of a record. Last night I left my Sony 2251 in the runout groove for 10 minutes- no big deal.

 

[mhardy6647]

... just more to go wrong with 'em when they're more and more automatic.