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Balanced turntable outputs - thoughts?

afora377

afora377

New Member
I'm reposting this from elsewhere as these fora were recommended highly. So...

I have a fully balanced setup in my home system. I'm now thinking about adding a turntable to it (been thinking for many years now) - I'm ready now but the tts I looked at within my budget ($1000) are terminated with RCAs. Why the theory behind balanced connectors would not apply to the phono stage? Also, are there any turntables with factory balanced output without requiring me to re-solder wiring? Thanks!
 
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Like whoaru, I've no direct experience, but from reading, and speaking tomany friends in the business, it seems the only advantage of balanced is when there are very long cable runs or overwhelming levels of RFI and/or EMF. That's why it's used in studios and concert halls, where they have literally miles of cabling. Over the short length from a TT to a phono preamp it should make no difference.
 
I've always found this topic amusing, in that the cartridge interface is generally the only interface in home audio where differential is truly beneficial, and yet it's the least likely place to find one.

I run all mine balanced; the common mode rejection affords me a good ~12dB less noise over SE.

**EDIT - I should add, that's with only 6" of cable from the arm to the gain stage.
 
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Yes, the cartridge is floating and could be easily wired with a balanced termination but I'm not aware of any phonostages that are wired to accept a balanced input.
 
JP said:
I've always found this topic amusing, in that the cartridge interface is generally the only interface in home audio where differential is truly beneficial, and yet it's the least likely place to find one.

I run all mine balanced; the common mode rejection affords me a good ~12dB less noise over SE.

**EDIT - I should add, that's with only 6" of cable from the arm to the gain stage.
Click to expand...

How do you do that?
 
JP said:
Do what?
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Maybe I misunderstood but the way you phrased that let me to believe you ran your "cartridge interface" or turntable balanced. I've never seen a turntable with balanced output so I was curious if you'd rigged something up. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about balanced vs line so I'm just trying to absorb what I can.
 
Mitkraft said:
Maybe I misunderstood but the way you phrased that let me to believe you ran your "cartridge interface" or turntable balanced. I've never seen a turntable with balanced output so I was curious if you'd rigged something up. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about balanced vs line so I'm just trying to absorb what I can.
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The best way is to rewire the arm. I'm not much concerned about the wire in my arms and I didn't want to modify them, so I use shielded twisted pair with the pair terminated with RCAs and the shield broken out to the arm ground. It's a weak link at the connection, but balanced before and after, and is effective enough for my needs. I get some residual 60Hz just a few dB above the cartridge noise floor.

The other thing you need to watch for are cartridges with the case bonded to signal "ground". That channel won't be floating any longer, thus not differential.
 
afora377 said:
I'm reposting this from elsewhere as these fora were recommended highly. So...

I have a fully balanced setup in my home system. I'm now thinking about adding a turntable to it (been thinking for many years now) - I'm ready now but the tts I looked at within my budget ($1000) are terminated with RCAs. Why the theory behind balanced connectors would not apply to the phono stage? Also, are there any turntables with factory balanced output without requiring me to re-solder wiring? Thanks!
Click to expand...
I think I'd just use short RCA cables between the tt and a pre-amp with balanced outputs.
 
Electrically, at least in theory, balance is always more noise-immune than SE.
This said, a well-routed SE can be very quiet.
 
Morzh said:
Electrically, at least in theory, balance is always more noise-immune than SE.
This said, a well-routed SE can be very quiet.
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Yes, it is more immune to common mode noise. However, in practice the benefits might be doubtful because of the cable lengths involved (usually just 1 metre) and because turntables tend to be afflicted with non-common-mode noise where balanced cables won't help.
 
IMO, the chief weakness of the turntable, so far as signal quality goes, isn't due to the presence or absence of integrated balanced wiring.
 
rothwellaudio said:
Yes, it is more immune to common mode noise. However, in practice the benefits might be doubtful because of the cable lengths involved (usually just 1 metre) and because turntables tend to be afflicted with non-common-mode noise where balanced cables won't help.
Click to expand...

Being common-mode or not is all about how the noise is induced/picked up by the cabling, no? You should try it - the results here are meaningful, even with 6 inches of wire.
 
JP said:
The best way is to rewire the arm. I'm not much concerned about the wire in my arms and I didn't want to modify them, so I use shielded twisted pair with the pair terminated with RCAs and the shield broken out to the arm ground. It's a weak link at the connection, but balanced before and after, and is effective enough for my needs. I get some residual 60Hz just a few dB above the cartridge noise floor.

The other thing you need to watch for are cartridges with the case bonded to signal "ground". That channel won't be floating any longer, thus not differential.
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to do some research and learn a bit more to fully understand what you described above but I'm interested at the idea of lowering the noise floor and since I was going to rewire the interconnects on my TT this might be something I'll have to look into.
 
There's a big thread on this over at diyaudio. Opinions vary. Self thinks there's no reason to do it. It isn't really balanced unless the coils have center taps that can be grounded, and none do. I don't know if the loading resistors accomplish the same function. OTOH, some people seem to get benefits. Never tried it.
 
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JP said:
Being common-mode or not is all about how the noise is induced/picked up by the cabling, no? You should try it - the results here are meaningful, even with 6 inches of wire.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is something that I've been meaning to experiment with for a while now - another project on the back burner:idea:
 
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