Bay window behind speakers... a what-if question...

[JoeESP9]

The problem with "naked" venetian blinds is they are inherently reflective. This can be somewhat mitigated by adjusting the slant of the slats. However, IME the combination of heavy curtains and blinds offer the most effectiveness and flexibility for room correction.

To properly treat a bay window's acoustics you need a combination of absorption, diffusion and even some reflectance. Usually, you'll achieve better results if you treat all of the room surfaces, especially first reflectance points. Bear in mind, the idea is to make the room friendlier to balanced sound. An anechoic chamber or totally soundproof room is not the goal. Once I got the right settings for window, curtains, blinds and other devices (absorption, bass traps, etc.) the soundstage became deeper and wider.

Unfortunately I can't adjust things for the best all the time. My best setting requires the windows to be open. That's not an option in the winter.

Then there is the LEDE (live end dead end) room. For this you damp the entire end of the room where the speakers are located. It's only valid when using "monkey coffins".

 

[tomlinmgt]

The problem with "naked" venetian blinds is they are inherently reflective. This can be somewhat mitigated by adjusting the slant of the slats. However, IME the combination of heavy curtains and blinds offer the most effectiveness and flexibility for room correction.

To properly treat a bay window's acoustics you need a combination of absorption, diffusion and even some reflectance. Usually, you'll achieve better results if you treat all of the room surfaces, especially first reflectance points. Bear in mind, the idea is to make the room friendlier to balanced sound. An anechoic chamber or totally soundproof room is not the goal. Once I got the right settings for window, curtains, blinds and other devices (absorption, bass traps, etc.) the soundstage became deeper and wider.

Unfortunately I can't adjust things for the best all the time. My best setting requires the windows to be open. That's not an option in the winter.

Then there is the LEDE (live end dead end) room. For this you damp the entire end of the room where the speakers are located. It's only valid when using "monkey coffins".

A rear wall in this room is virtually non existent...so the front wall/bay window is seeing little to no acoustic energy above the mid bass region. Any reflections of mid and HF energy coming from that frontal area will have already reflected off of other surfaces, so they will be late arriving and adding to the reverb characteristics of the room in a positive way...so long as they're not reflecting off of glass (which we all know makes a negative contribution). Getting better control of the low frequency energy that's accumulating in that area with bass traps or thick absorption panels would help sound stage and image resolution...perhaps even width.

But I still want to know where he's sitting.

 

[vdfsamba]

Where is your seated listening position located (stated as distance in feet from speakers)?

The sweet spot tends to be 10' 10" from the front of the speakers. Sadly, having a destructive collie, I can't have furniture that's in his way and have to keep an open path to the front window. A listening chair is in the future. I tend to do all my listening, standing. I'll step to different positions of the room, to listen to the room. I alway's go back to that sweet spot. I don't have booming in the corners. Speakers tilt back slightly. I can step 2 feet forward, and that too sounds nice. If I'm really listening, I'll drop my head in plane with the tweeters, close my eyes, point to the bass, the guitar, the drums, and they're all in that phantom center channel, about 3 1/2 feet behind the speakers. Just no soundstage out side the speakers.

 

[vdfsamba]

The problem with "naked" venetian blinds is they are inherently reflective. This can be somewhat mitigated by adjusting the slant of the slats. However, IME the combination of heavy curtains and blinds offer the most effectiveness and flexibility for room correction.

To properly treat a bay window's acoustics you need a combination of absorption, diffusion and even some reflectance. Usually, you'll achieve better results if you treat all of the room surfaces, especially first reflectance points. Bear in mind, the idea is to make the room friendlier to balanced sound. An anechoic chamber or totally soundproof room is not the goal. Once I got the right settings for window, curtains, blinds and other devices (absorption, bass traps, etc.) the soundstage became deeper and wider.

Unfortunately I can't adjust things for the best all the time. My best setting requires the windows to be open. That's not an option in the winter.

Then there is the LEDE (live end dead end) room. For this you damp the entire end of the room where the speakers are located. It's only valid when using "monkey coffins".

A rear wall in this room is virtually non existent...so the front wall/bay window is seeing little to no acoustic energy above the mid bass region. Any reflections of mid and HF energy coming from that frontal area will have already reflected off of other surfaces, so they will be late arriving and adding to the reverb characteristics of the room in a positive way...so long as they're not reflecting off of glass (which we all know makes a negative contribution). Getting better control of the low frequency energy that's accumulating in that area with bass traps or thick absorption panels would help sound stage and image resolution...perhaps even width.

But I still want to know where he's sitting.

This resonse is a little awkward for me because what both you guys are saying is not only very interesting but counterintuitive to how I've been thinking of things. I've always thought of absorption in terms of taming an overly live room, 1st reflection points or addressing excessive bass.

The only time the room acts up is when music is played too loud. That's not something I enjoy, so I tend to listen below that and I can talk at normal levels. Because I play at moderate levels, room issues probably aren't revealing themselves? I know how to find 1st reflection points. But addressing low frequency energy built up by my speakers would never have crossed my mind because I'm not hearing any muddiness or booming. But what it sounds like is, I might not be hearing it, but I might be hearing the results of this, and this may be collapsing my sound stage? Joe, you spoke of getting the right combination of treatment and it lead to a wider deeper, more defined soundstage. I've got nothing outside my speakers, only between them and behind them.

How would I know if that front area is an issue... I just thought of this... the only time I do hear booming and mud anywhere in that room, is when I step in the area behind the speakers. If I walk back outfront, it's all gone, clean. Maybe I'll get behind there tomorrow, put down some tabs of blue tape to get a better idea where the greatest intensity of this exists. And the loudest booming would be the intersection of reflections?

You guy's are good~ Thank You

 

[tomlinmgt]

The sweet spot tends to be 10' 10" from the front of the speakers. Sadly, having a destructive collie, I can't have furniture that's in his way and have to keep an open path to the front window. A listening chair is in the future. I tend to do all my listening, standing. I'll step to different positions of the room, to listen to the room. I alway's go back to that sweet spot. I don't have booming in the corners. Speakers tilt back slightly. I can step 2 feet forward, and that too sounds nice. If I'm really listening, I'll drop my head in plane with the tweeters, close my eyes, point to the bass, the guitar, the drums, and they're all in that phantom center channel, about 3 1/2 feet behind the speakers. Just no soundstage out side the speakers.

First, let's get you a track to listen to that we know has content that images beyond the outer margins or the speakers. Hopefully you have access to one of the streaming services...of so, go listen to "Dogs" off of Roger Waters In The Flesh...Live. I won't tell you what element of the recording ventures beyond the speakers, but if your system can do it, you'll know it immediately when you hear it. Report back with your findings.

Michael

 

[vdfsamba]

[

First, let's get you a track to listen to that we know has content that images beyond the outer margins or the speakers. Hopefully you have access to one of the streaming services...of so, go listen to "Dogs" off of Roger Waters In The Flesh...Live. I won't tell you what element of the recording ventures beyond the speakers, but if your system can do it, you'll know it immediately when you hear it. Report back with your findings.

Michael

I don't stream or have a streamer.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Are you listening to tracks that you know have content that extends beyond the speakers because you've heard it before and this current system simply isn't?

 

[GChief]

[

I don't stream or have a streamer.

One more thing to fix

 

[JoeESP9]

This resonse is a little awkward for me because what both you guys are saying is not only very interesting but counterintuitive to how I've been thinking of things. I've always thought of absorption in terms of taming an overly live room, 1st reflection points or addressing excessive bass.

The only time the room acts up is when music is played too loud. That's not something I enjoy, so I tend to listen below that and I can talk at normal levels. Because I play at moderate levels, room issues probably aren't revealing themselves? I know how to find 1st reflection points. But addressing low frequency energy built up by my speakers would never have crossed my mind because I'm not hearing any muddiness or booming. But what it sounds like is, I might not be hearing it, but I might be hearing the results of this, and this may be collapsing my sound stage? Joe, you spoke of getting the right combination of treatment and it lead to a wider deeper, more defined soundstage. I've got nothing outside my speakers, only between them and behind them.

How would I know if that front area is an issue... I just thought of this... the only time I do hear booming and mud anywhere in that room, is when I step in the area behind the speakers. If I walk back outfront, it's all gone, clean. Maybe I'll get behind there tomorrow, put down some tabs of blue tape to get a better idea where the greatest intensity of this exists. And the loudest booming would be the intersection of reflections?

You guy's are good~ Thank You

If you hear booming when you get behind the speakers that is contributing to the lack of a soundstage.

Bass traps are usually placed in the corners. That's where they're most effective. Even if you don't hear boomy bass bass traps will generally improve the overall sound. For a cheap way to find out. Stack a couple of rolled up sleeping bags in the corners. If you don't hear any difference you've saved some money.

A soundstage that extends past the outside of the speakers has to be in the recording. A properly set up eoom/system just gives what's in the recording.

IME very little rock/pop will produce a soundstage that extends beyond the outside of the speakers. This is because there is no soundstage to reproduce with most studio tweaked recordings.

 

[vdfsamba]

One more thing to fix

probly... a quality streamer or streamer-w-quality dac...don't know about streamers, have read about dacs. I don't want musac that sends me my likes... At 62, I live in a historically jazz town without a jazz station. Years ago, I lived in a town with 2 public radio stations that offset their jazz programing, 24/7. i had notebooks of music, who's on tenor, who's on bass, drums or keyboards. Those tracks that wowed me, seeing the same names interspersed in different combinations, it was a great education. I'd pick up the phone, hey dad - and we'd talk, all about music. I loved being introduced to music, Steeplechase, Criss Cross, things I would never come across... I don't know if a streamer would do that, and maybe that's not what it's designed for, but that's why I'll listen to radio, KCSM San Francisco, Jazz 91 Toronto, St Louis, any number of stations online. I've tried using an fm transmitter to send to my stereo, but the sound is flat, thin, not what I'd listen to. Hey, maybe I should break out my walkman~

 

[vdfsamba]

S

If you hear booming when you get behind the speakers that is contributing to the lack of a soundstage.

Bass traps are usually placed in the corners. That's where they're most effective. Even if you don't hear boomy bass bass traps will generally improve the overall sound. For a cheap way to find out. Stack a couple of rolled up sleeping bags in the corners. If you don't hear any difference you've saved some money.

A soundstage that extends past the outside of the speakers has to be in the recording. A properly set up eoom/system just gives what's in the recording.

IME very little rock/pop will produce a soundstage that extends beyond the outside of the speakers. This is because there is no soundstage to reproduce with most studio tweaked recordings.

So, I did step back there last night. It was noticable behind the speakers. It was more like the rest of the room when I stepped into the corner. As for the bay window, the central window, the column window on the right, the column window on the left... in the corner, not so much additional bass. As I neared center of the right column window, hightened, unpleasant bass. As I neared the middle of the center window - accessive bass.

 

[vdfsamba]

Are you listening to tracks that you know have content that extends beyond the speakers because you've heard it before and this current system simply isn't?

Reasonable question... I've always read about soundstage. Other than with headphones, I've never experienced soundstage. Wouldn't know of any recourding known for wide expansive sound. The only reason I'm starting to hear soundstage is becase of swapping out cables. I never heard it before.

 

[GChief]

probly... a quality streamer or streamer-w-quality dac...don't know about streamers, have read about dacs. I don't want musac that sends me my likes... At 62, I live in a historically jazz town without a jazz station. Years ago, I lived in a town with 2 public radio stations that offset their jazz programing, 24/7. i had notebooks of music, who's on tenor, who's on bass, drums or keyboards. Those tracks that wowed me, seeing the same names interspersed in different combinations, it was a great education. I'd pick up the phone, hey dad - and we'd talk, all about music. I loved being introduced to music, Steeplechase, Criss Cross, things I would never come across... I don't know if a streamer would do that, and maybe that's not what it's designed for, but that's why I'll listen to radio, KCSM San Francisco, Jazz 91 Toronto, St Louis, any number of stations online. I've tried using an fm transmitter to send to my stereo, but the sound is flat, thin, not what I'd listen to. Hey, maybe I should break out my walkman~

All good either way.
But don’t fall for all the curmudgeon hype about streaming, you can control all that

 

[JoeESP9]

Reasonable question... I've always read about soundstage. Other than with headphones, I've never experienced soundstage. Wouldn't know of any recourding known for wide expansive sound. The only reason I'm starting to hear soundstage is becase of swapping out cables. I never heard it before.

Sorry. Headphones do not create nor exhibit any sort of soundstage. A soundstage by definition is the aural illusion of musicians performing "over there" where the speakers used to be. It's impossible for headphones to do this as all of the music comes from inside your head. If what headphones do constitutes a soundstage to you we have very different ideas as to what a soundstage is.

From the Stereophile Audio Glossary:
soundstaging, soundstage presentation The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.

I don't know what you're hearing but headphones can't do this. All the different cables in the world can't make headphones produce a soundstage. They do have excellent left right imaging.

Many jazz and classical recordings have an easily audible soundstage. Most pop/rock recordings don't exhibit a soundstage because there isn't one in the recording to reproduce.

 

[vdfsamba]

Sorry. Headphones do not create nor exhibit any sort of soundstage. A soundstage by definition is the aural illusion of musicians performing "over there" where the speakers used to be. It's impossible for headphones to do this as all of the music comes from inside your head. If what headphones do constitutes a soundstage to you we have very different ideas as to what a soundstage is.

From the Stereophile Audio Glossary:
soundstaging, soundstage presentation The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.

I don't know what you're hearing but headphones can't do this. All the different cables in the world can't make headphones produce a soundstage. They do have excellent left right imaging.

Many jazz and classical recordings have an easily audible soundstage. Most pop/rock recordings don't exhibit a soundstage because there isn't one in the recording to reproduce.

Once again, you've humbled me Joe. Warm regards

 

[JoeESP9]

Once again, you've humbled me Joe. Warm regards

Please excuse me. Sometimes I talk to much. In this case it's me wondering how what headphones sound like is called a soundstage.

To add a small correction to my original post. Binaural recordings can produce an extremely realistic soundstage but only with headphones.

If you're interested in finding out how spooky real headphones can be get some binaural recordings. With them you'll hear a soundstage like you wouldn't believe. Unfortunately binaural recordings sound rather meh on speakers.

I was introduced to binaural recording via the Stereo Review Binaural Demonstration Record. For anyone interested in binaural recordings I highly recommend it. Back then I was using a Hafler DH-200 to drive a pair of Stax SR34/40's. While listening to something (I don't remember what) I distinctly heard someone in the audience sitting behind me to my right. He, yes he, was coughing.

 

[quiet]

One more thing to fix

The first thing to fix.
The world is our Oster.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Reasonable question... I've always read about soundstage. Other than with headphones, I've never experienced soundstage. Wouldn't know of any recourding known for wide expansive sound. The only reason I'm starting to hear soundstage is becase of swapping out cables. I never heard it before.

You might want to investigate the audiophile demonstration discs offered by Chesky Records. I have this one and it can be helpful....
https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Critical-Listening/dp/B00002MXUH

...except if you don't really experience what they're describing in the dialog (because your system isn't capable of reproducing it), you probably won't understand what they're talking about. But one thing is for sure...once you experience a multi-dimensional sound stage with clearly defined images, there's no mistaking it. Basically, if you hear most of the music coming from the speakers rather than hearing (well, "seeing", too) instruments/vocalists suspended in the open space around the speakers (mostly behind and between but above, outboard and in front of, as well), then you're not getting a depiction of sound stage. And just getting a center image doesn't mean your getting a depiction of sound stage, either (that's a step toward it, but you have more work to do to get the full Monty). And not to get argumentive with Joe, who I respect highly, but many rock/pop recordings have an artificial sound stage engineered into the recording. Many times you can hear/see a drum set configured in the sound stage as an accurate recreation of the set up (I might happen to know a thing or two about this since I've been breaking drumsticks for close to four decades), with toms and cymbals, snare and hi hat floating in space in the area they would occupy if the kit were set up in front of you. Vocalists can be center image, offset center, back of stage...anywhere really, just depends on where the recording engineer wants to put them. Same with all the other instruments, but you rarely hear guitar squarely situated in one spot. That's an instrument that gets panned and grouped a lot for effect. I will agree that jazz and classical are more reliable depictors of sound stage, but it's happening in pop/rock, too. Just go listen to somerhing like Pink Floyd The Wall or Rush Moving Pictures.

Michael

 

[GChief]

but many rock/pop recordings have an artificial sound stage engineered into the recording.

Yep, hear it all the time.
But I typically leave that one alone on here

 

[JoeESP9]

You might want to investigate the audiophile demonstration discs offered by Chesky Records. I have this one and it can be helpful....
https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Critical-Listening/dp/B00002MXUH

...except if you don't really experience what they're describing in the dialog (because your system isn't capable of reproducing it), you probably won't understand what they're talking about. But one thing is for sure...once you experience a multi-dimensional sound stage with clearly defined images, there's no mistaking it. Basically, if you hear most of the music coming from the speakers rather than hearing (well, "seeing", too) instruments/vocalists suspended in the open space around the speakers (mostly behind and between but above, outboard and in front of, as well), then you're not getting a depiction of sound stage. And just getting a center image doesn't mean your getting a depiction of sound stage, either (that's a step toward it, but you have more work to do to get the full Monty). And not to get argumentive with Joe, who I respect highly, but many rock/pop recordings have an artificial sound stage engineered into the recording. Many times you can hear/see a drum set configured in the sound stage as an accurate recreation of the set up (I might happen to know a thing or two about this since I've been breaking drumsticks for close to four decades), with toms and cymbals, snare and hi hat floating in space in the area they would occupy if the kit were set up in front of you. Vocalists can be center image, offset center, back of stage...anywhere really, just depends on where the recording engineer wants to put them. Same with all the other instruments, but you rarely hear guitar squarely situated in one spot. That's an instrument that gets panned and grouped a lot for effect. I will agree that jazz and classical are more reliable depictors of sound stage, but it's happening in pop/rock, too. Just go listen to somerhing like Pink Floyd The Wall or Rush Moving Pictures.

Michael

My problem with those types of pop/rock recordings is that the room ambience is not consistent. Yes, the drums may have a room sound but it's not the same room sound as other instruments. The sound reminds me of a collage. It sounds to me like it's a bunch of different ambiances glued together with the seams showing.