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Bi-amp mix match amps.

elmostro

Well-Known Member
I’m a bit confused about bi-amping. I have an mc462 amp a c53 pre and the men220. I also an amplifier that I’m not using and I would like it to use it for the highs and the mc462 for the low’s. Can I just add the extra amp to the equation or do I still need a active crossover? Sorry but I don’t know much I’m learning.
 
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I’m a bit confused about bi-amping. I have an mc462 amp a c53 pre and the men220. I also an amplifier that I’m not using and I would like it to use it for the highs and the mc462 for the low’s. Can I just add the extra amp to the equation or do I still need a active crossover? Sorry but I don’t know much I’m learning.
Your MEN220 has just such a crossover. You should thoroughly digest the owner's manual.
 
If you keep your passive crossovers the bi-amping will not be pure in the classic sense. The only thing you gain is if you were to use a tube amp for the mid and tweeters you would get that different sound. Using the MEN as a crossover, too will just dd timing and phase distortions on top of those issues that the speaker already has keep ing the passive crossover. By removing the passive sections for the woofer and the high pass sectin for the midrnge, you mght gain more efficencies which have to be corrected, and depending n what kind of electronic crossover you purchase, whch order of filters and how they combine mght nhelp or make the sound worse. You really need some test equipment to do it right. Now if you hve speakers that were specificlly designed to be bi-amped by bi-passing the passive crossover sections, like Bozak and Altec and a few JBL from the 60 and 70's its pretty easy. But unless todays or recently designed speakers are specifically designed for true bi-amping I feel its just a waste of money. Yes the sound will change, but its a gamble. Why not make sure your voicing using the different modes of the 220 are the best they can be. And here agan this means havin Computers with calibrated mics and the appropriate apps to see what the result are. If they are not your liking then you can go nto the 220 and use the parametric filters to touch up the results. But any time you use equalization or what I call voicing your speakers have to be able to handle the challenge. Most speakers can't, only the best survive.

Remember you want a system that has a minimum of 10 db of head room. Meaning it can produce levels without distortion at least 10 db above anything you listen to loudly. So if your speakers are rated at 200 watts but you listen with levels over 120 watts then you have the wrong speakers. I normally listen loudly at 30 watts with an occasional 50 to 90 watt peak every blue moon. And my amps put out close to 700 watts when the power guard lights start flickering across 4 ohms. So yes I am cheating a bit. But remeber those 60 watt and 90 watt levels are into that safety zone above the normally loud 30 watt levels. So I am good to go. Thats where Klipsch, some pf the older Big JBL, EV and Altec owners have an advantage. They listen at less than 1 or 1/2 watt levels, so when at 10 watt peak comes along they are still just coasting with plenty of spare capability.
 
Wow that’s a lot. But I Got it I won’t mess with it. Thank you for your time.

You should consult your speaker's manual or the speaker manufacturer directly. It looks to me that the 801s are designed for passive bi-amping and instructions for how to do that should be in the speaker's owner's manual. They are not designed for active bi-amping so the MEN is not needed here.

Not sure what amp you have, but you need an upper-range amp with the same voltage gain as the MC462 in order to maintain the same relative sound level. Note, voltage gain is not the same as amplifier sensitivity. If the two amps are mismatched, you can install a simple passive adjustable attenuator between the preamp and the amp with the higher gain to rein it back to match the other amp.

Also, you should not use a tube amp for passive bi-amping, especially for the upper-range. (If you do have a tube amp, you will need some kind of simple filter up front to keep most of the bass out of that upper range tube amp.)

If you have two SS amps with identical voltage gain, you can just hook them up per the instructions. A second MC462 would be ideal but not cheap.

But the question is why do you want to do this? Is the MC462 having some kind of problem driving these speakers to the volume you want (seems unlikely)? Is there a problem with the sound quality? You didn't say, but I guess you should understand what you want to achieve.

Since you already have an amp in house, you can just try it and see what happens - if the amp is or can be gain matched to the MC462 and if the amp is solid state.

In the olden days, we had dealers who helped us with this kind of stuff.
 
the problem i upgraded my speakers with the revel salon2 and they are really putting some stress to my mc462. The power guard is starting to flash at high volume. this is what i got from the user manual
(Horizontal bi-amplified connections can be made with identical or non-identical power amplifiers with identical gain factors)
the amp that i'm trying to use is the emotiva XPA gen 3 but i can't find the voltage gain in the user manual


You should consult your speaker's manual or the speaker manufacturer directly. It looks to me that the 801s are designed for passive bi-amping and instructions for how to do that should be in the speaker's owner's manual. They are not designed for active bi-amping so the MEN is not needed here.

Not sure what amp you have, but you need an upper-range amp with the same voltage gain as the MC462 in order to maintain the same relative sound level. Note, voltage gain is not the same as amplifier sensitivity. If the two amps are mismatched, you can install a simple passive adjustable attenuator between the preamp and the amp with the higher gain to rein it back to match the other amp.

Also, you should not use a tube amp for passive bi-amping, especially for the upper-range. (If you do have a tube amp, you will need some kind of simple filter up front to keep most of the bass out of that upper range tube amp.)

If you have two SS amps with identical voltage gain, you can just hook them up per the instructions. A second MC462 would be ideal but not cheap.

But the question is why do you want to do this? Is the MC462 having some kind of problem driving these speakers to the volume you want (seems unlikely)? Is there a problem with the sound quality? You didn't say, but I guess you should understand what you want to achieve.

Since you already have an amp in house, you can just try it and see what happens - if the amp is or can be gain matched to the MC462 and if the amp is solid state.

In the olden days, we had dealers who helped us with this kind of stuff.
 
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Flashing the Power Guard lamps is not a sign of "stress" on any McIntosh amp. Rather, that simply indicates that the output of the amplifier is being limited as the difference between the output of the amplifier and the input signal is beyond the 1% limit. This difference between the output signal and input signal is known as distortion. Now, that doesn't mean that you're going to damage anything. It means that you've simply reached the threshold of triggering the Power Guard circuit. So, all is well. You've reached the MC462s limits when that happens 20% of the time - I'm givin' her all she's got cap'n . . .

So, your Revel Salon 2 carries a 6 Ohm nominal rating. You undoubtedly have the speakers connected to the 4 Ohm taps of the amplifier as you've been led to believe that's correct. Regardless of what the manual may say, or what you may hear on the interweb, you're handicapping the output of the amplifier when doing that. So, move those turkeys to the 8 Ohm taps. Yep, the amp will run hotter. That's OK - you bought a McIntosh. Who cares? If you read the amplifier manual closely, you will see that the MC462 has a substantial output current capability (I believe that is stated as 75A/ch.). The only way you can get that is to cause the amp to work hard. And that sir, is what you want. Now, flashing the Power Guard lamps will likely occur well after you've reached your personal threshold. [I have two MC2600s bridged and am unable to flash them . . . at all. That system can play so loud it scares me.]

Bi-amping with a lesser powered amplifier on the top end, will not give you what you're after. Personally, I still think you bought the wrong speakers given your listening habits, but to each their own.
 
Flashing the Power Guard lamps is not a sign of "stress" on any McIntosh amp. Rather, that simply indicates that the output of the amplifier is being limited as the difference between the output of the amplifier and the input signal is beyond the 1% limit. This difference between the output signal and input signal is known as distortion. Now, that doesn't mean that you're going to damage anything. It means that you've simply reached the threshold of triggering the Power Guard circuit. So, all is well. You've reached the MC462s limits when that happens 20% of the time - I'm givin' her all she's got cap'n . . .

So, your Revel Salon 2 carries a 6 Ohm nominal rating. You undoubtedly have the speakers connected to the 4 Ohm taps of the amplifier as you've been led to believe that's correct. Regardless of what the manual may say, or what you may hear on the interweb, you're handicapping the output of the amplifier when doing that. So, move those turkeys to the 8 Ohm taps. Yep, the amp will run hotter. That's OK - you bought a McIntosh. Who cares? If you read the amplifier manual closely, you will see that the MC462 has a substantial output current capability (I believe that is stated as 75A/ch.). The only way you can get that is to cause the amp to work hard. And that sir, is what you want. Now, flashing the Power Guard lamps will likely occur well after you've reached your personal threshold. [I have two MC2600s bridged and am unable to flash them . . . at all. That system can play so loud it scares me.]

Bi-amping with a lesser powered amplifier on the top end, will not give you what you're after. Personally, I still think you bought the wrong speakers given your listening habits, but to each their own.
Time to upgrade to 1.25kw
 
I will be picking up a pair of mc1.25 Saturday. I can’t wait to see how it going to sound. I hope it sounds better.
 
I went from 462 to 1.25 with my 801s.
Yes it sounds better. $17,000 better? I dunno, 462 is an amazing stereo amp and definitely not lacking.

1.25s are more than enough. Knowing nothing more could ever be needed is nice. Having said that, still have more up my sleeve.

Curious to your impressions when they arrive!
 

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I went from 462 to 1.25 with my 801s.
Yes it sounds better. $17,000 better? I dunno, 462 is an amazing stereo amp and definitely not lacking.

1.25s are more than enough. Knowing nothing more could ever be needed is nice. Having said that, still have more up my sleeve.

Curious to your impressions when they arrive!
I will post results thanks
 
FWIW, I use two different type/wattage Mc. amps in my living room`s Mc. XRT-30 tri-amplified speaker system, and they work very well together, for their intended power requirements.
(2) MC-1201 SS mono blocks for the 2X12" speaker bass cabinets from 80Hz on down, and (4) MC-275LE mono configured tube amps.
Each mono`d 275 drives a midrange (80Hz to 1,700 Hz) or the tweeters from 1.700 Hz to 20 kHz for each M/T filled line array column.
DSCN0010.JPG DSCN0035.JPG DSCN0036.JPG IMG_1264.jpg
 
Wow big difference from the 462 to the mc1.25. I’m very happy with the upgrade. Huge difference.
 

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Wow big difference from the 462 to the mc1.25. I’m very happy with the upgrade. Huge difference.

No surprise there, elmostro.. :beerchug:
Those big boys can swing some serious dynamic current through speakers with plenty of reserve headroom ! :bowdown:
Enjoy. :music:
 
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