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Big full range, unpowered speakers just sound better

infullview

infullview

Super Member
I’ve been doing some critical listening lately and I’ve discovered something interesting, my full range speakers outperform my smaller speakers with 15 inch sub. It was hard to put my finger on exactly what was different until I played a YouTube video of Clapton covering Black Magic Woman on an acoustic guitar. It starts off with just a kick drum and that was the tip off. The kick was pure and clean on my 15 inch woofers (full range system) but when I played the same tune with the system that used a sub it sounded mushy. What I think happens is the ported tuning on the sub can’t accurately reproduce the kick drum. Also, the transient response on a sub in the upper base range just isn’t there.

I would like others who have two speaker systems set up similar to mine to try this test and see if they hear the same result.
 
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Adding a sub to a music based system is simple to do, but hard to do right. Placement and phasing, as well as the right crossover point, will make or break the sound. If it's muddy, there's interaction that's not ideal, or often the sub playing to high. I have 8" speakers that outperform the 15" in the other room, nether uses a sub. The 8" will do 35hz readily.

There is also very little musical content under 60hz. Kick drum juuust gets there at 50hz, most of the sound isn't coming from your sub.
 
Please listen to the clip I recommend and see if you hear the difference. Clapton’s group has an acoustic bass that just about shakes my living room. My lame set up is a pair of model 23’s with a Kef 15 inch sub crossed over as low as it would go 50Hz?
 
Statement might be applicable to OP’s situation but the stated premise is not true in all situations. Speakers large and small are capable of being overwhelming or underwhelming if used in the wrong situation.

Room dimensions, speaker placement, listening position as well as speaker and sub quality are huge variables. A good speaker/sub (large or small) combination properly positioned in the appropriately sized space driven by good electronics and sources is going to sound great.
 
I don't use a sub. I don't have any issue with people that do. Proper setup is key. But I get everything I want from my speakers so I just don't have any use for a sub. Might be different if I had a home theater sort of setup. I get plenty of bass from my two ways with 8" woofers and a bit of low end EQ.

To each his own and sub quality obviously makes a difference.
 
Setup is indeed the key.

I've seen some really high-end speakers that benefited GREATLY from the addition of a sub. And those were speakers that actually HAD good bass extension, ostensibly.

One particular situation, was a pair of Martin-Logan Prodigy speakers, that were just TRANSFORMED to another class of performance, by the addition of a pair of Martin-Logan Descent triple-10 subwoofers. We did get pretty involved in tuning- to the extent of building a low-cut passive filter, which I built into the interconnect cables between preamp and amp, to reduce the low-end to the Prodigy speakers below 35Hz. Even though they had 10" woofers themselves, and were capable of going below 30Hz in room- adding the subs made it from something that was merely very good, to arguably world-class great.

A more recent case, was working with some Acora SRB speakers, where we added the new Acora Bedrock subwoofers- made specifically to mate with the SRBs, both cosmetically and functionally. Again, integration was the key- the subs were unpowered- and it used an outboard processor/DSP unit with a separate amplifier for the subwoofer, which allowed many degrees of calibration to integrate it correctly. But, arguably, that system- a pair of $18K SRB monitors, and $20K Bedrock subs- got to within, IMHO, single-digit percentages to the performance of the $218K Acora VRC speakers. Which makes some sense, as most of the drivers were from the same manufacturer and model line, and in fact, the driver in the Bedrock is the same woofer that's in the VRC speakers- just with one of them, instead of two (in the VRC).

It does take quality subwoofers and careful integration- but there is oftentimes potential for significant improvement.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I agree that many sub/bookshelf systems (within a sane budget) lack punch and chestiness through much of the bass range, when compared to full-range speakers in a large cabinet. I find it even more pronounced when comparing to speakers with sealed cabinets, and when using cheap home theater subs. I think a lot of it depends on the quality and voice character of the sub. You can make it happen with the right gear.
 
Area man said:
You can make it happen with the right gear.
Click to expand...
And those are some honest words. I too have noticed the differences between the full-size and subs especially when playing older rock from the analog days. Subs seem to sorta mush things together without the natural harmonic "blending" while the larger cabinets allow this. On my end it's a set of KLH model 17's along with BIC Venturi Formula 2's with the ports plugged and a Polk PSW250 sub sorta "running in the background" and all are driven by their own QSC 1400 amps, those in turn are driven by a SX-1080.

If I run without the sub and all is flat everything takes on a subtle "woody" kind of sound, vocals are less "chesty" and percussion's like the bongo's are very life like but there is a definite lack of low-end "fill" bass. I know the Polk PSW250 was one of the better rated subs in terms of overall accuracy however the amp isn't the most robust, the speaker is driven by a QSC 1400 in bridgemode some -10db lower than the mains and might be contributing to the overall mush however it doesn't sound distorted running solo.

I did have a matched pair of Vega! D9's but... rent was due and they got passed to a friend along with a Beomaster 5000 and matching Beocord 5000. The Vega! D9's were literally an earthquake on demand with the 1400's and could do concert levels in a 500 sq/ft studio apt without breakup but they left me little room, everything else is on shelves and the Polk at the bottom of the rack.
 
Loudnoise does make a good point. Phase alignment with the speakers and setting the crossover point is crucial. Not to mention to crossover slopes changes. I see some overlook the slope which is also important. All three plays in important part of seamless integration. My Atlantic Technology SP-8000 has made my REL integrate very well with my Triangle BR03 in a way it sounds ONE big system. Can't wait until I get my Crest Audio CA9 to pair my Velodyne SC-8s.
 
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IMG_2442.jpegI believe it depends on your sub placement and the room. I’ve some Altecs with 15”, most are JBL with 12”. My subs are special, RBH Sound 1010-SEN/Reference. Solid to 18 hz. Driven by RBH SA-400 amps. They blend well with all of my large and small speakers. You can’t detect there’s a sub playing. It’s subtle. They can also shake the subfloor.
 
My experience is there is no replacement for cubic inches for defined bass, not just bass, defined bass. A larger soft room with space around the speakers does wonders too. I also prefer the sound of a non-ported speaker and three way designs over two ways. I don't use a sub and do not run tv/movies into my stereos. My two cents if worth that !
Cheers All
 
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