BINGO - I Get it! The whole imaging thing!

[NumbDiver]

BINGO - I Get it! The whole imaging thing! Legacy Audio v. IRS Gamma pt.III



I've written a few threads about trading of my Infinity IRS Gammas for a pair of Legacy Focus HD. I knew (in theory) what I was giving up with the dipoles, and what I expected to gain. I did not, however, expect things to 'pop' into place when they did. Nor did I expect the result to be so stunning.

The Gammas always sounded good, no matter where you were. The sound was all around you. In a good way. I used to have people sit in between (like in-line, right between) the speakers, to show off the dipole effect and there was no bad seat in the house. I've heard REAL imaging once; at Doucanoe's place with his magic Edgar setup. Well...make that twice. Now I've got it at my place!:yes:

I was playing with toe-in (Gammas need no toe-in), and it feels weird to me to keep angling these speakers. The last go-round of toe adjust that I did, popped things into place. It was like putting on headphones. Interestingly only some recordings (maybe 50%) really show it off, in an eery way. I have a few very good recordings that still sound like 2 speakers in front of you. But so many of them now...Wow.

I liken it to those 3D pictures that you stare at for a while and you see nothing, then all of the sudden you are almost part of the scene. Seriously it was like that. I know many of you are reading this and saying to yourselves 'duh, that's what we've been talking about and listening to', but it's still a revelation for me. My system(s) have always 'sounded' good. Usually very good. Great timbre, great realism and depth, excellent tonality etc. all wrapped up in a warm-fuzzy package that 'sounds' good. But now (in the right spots) it sounds crazy. First time I heard it I started to laugh, it was so crazy.

I've got work ahead of me to try and get the Legacy's to 'sound' as good as the Gammas. It may happen, it may not. I figure there's a tradeoff with all speakers and if I can get 95% of the sonics the IRS have, and gain the crazy imaging in the process; it's a hit I'm willing to take. The Focus HD are great sounding speakers and now I gotta make them sound even better.

 

[ejfud]

Cool Rick!

The tone of this post is a bit more positive than the last one on this subject. I'm sure the Foci can be as stunning a speaker as the Gamma's.

 

[240sx4u]

Not to that extent, but that is why I sold my Infinity RSII's in favor or my Mordaunt-Short performance 860s (the new version is the performance 6). The MS's image much better than the infinitys did. The Infinitys were awesome when it came to entertaining a room though.

 

[doucanoe]

I might take some horsing around with positioning but you'll get there with the Legacy's I'm sure, Rick :yes:

It usually take me a couple of weeks of off and on listening and re-positioning to get close to what I am after. Even at the point where you feel satisfied you have got them doing what you want them to be doing, there always seem to be some room for fine tuning after that in my experience anyway.


I'm really looking forward to hearing them and possibly lending another ear for the fine tuning.

If thats the case, hopefully I won't screw up thing up too badly with my wood ear sensibilities

RC

 

[dumptruck]

Glad you're enjoying the new speakers! Just out of curiosity, how much room did you have around the gammas? I would think they can image pretty well way out from all walls in a large room.

 

[Brett a]

I love these stories when I hear them! I'm really happy for you. It is exciting when it comes together.

I know some people listen to stereo--"yeh, two speakers on the floor, there's a piano kinda' there, and it sounds like the bass is more off to the right etc, etc..." The sound of the instruments is obviously in the room, but no "picture" of the band playing. There's nothing really wrong with that if that floats your boat.

But the whole concept of stereo technology is for the purpose you're talking about; magical, 3-dimensional holographic images of instruments and people right there in front of you.

Once you've got that, then you can tune into how clearly the images are focused, how you can sense the space between them (I remember being thrilled when my system reached the point that i could hear the space around individual drums and cymbals that make up a drum kit.)

I just upgraded my CD player and am now "seeing" (with my ears) even more of the actual wooden body of acoustic guitars and resonances of the wood of piano bodies.

Anyway, once you get clear imaging and "no guessing" sound-staging, things get exciting IMO, (and can get expensive too). I'm really looking forward to hearing more

:thmbsp:

 

[Redboy]

I'm really looking forward to hearing them and possibly lending another ear for the fine tuning.

If thats the case, hopefully I won't screw up thing up too badly with my wood ear sensibilities

Right, like that's going to happen!

Rick, I had Ron over to my place the other day and we spent some time tinkering with my speaker setup. In an hour of listening and tweaking, Ron took my speaker placement to the next level. There are audiophiles out there that would pay big bucks for that kind of in-home consultation, but all Ron got out of me was a cup of coffee! Mind you, it was a good cup of coffee...

 

[grateful]

Do you hear pinpoint imaging when you listen to a live concert, or is it more diffuse like you hear with wide dispersion speakers? Which more accurately reproduces the experience?

 

[doucanoe]

Right, like that's going to happen!

Rick, I had Ron over to my place the other day and we spent some time tinkering with my speaker setup. In an hour of listening and tweaking, Ron took my speaker placement to the next level. There are audiophiles out there that would pay big bucks for that kind of in-home consultation, but all Ron got out of me was a cup of coffee! Mind you, it was a good cup of coffee...

Ha! And a dang good cuppa joe it was.

I have to admit I had a bit of a advantage here. A year or so of messing with my Edgarhorns taught me a trick or two :yes:

RC

 

[dokblues]

Congrats! It`s just So cool when everything falls in line and you get that "Wow" moment of Imaging and soundstage. When you really feel like the concert is being played just for you. You can every single insturment and the geetar players fingers running up and down the strings and the horns being right in front of you. Each individual drum in the kit and the Vocalist sounds like they are standing in front of you.
Gives you that kind of a warm glowing sense of accomplishment and astonishment.

 

[NumbDiver]

Do you hear pinpoint imaging when you listen to a live concert, or is it more diffuse like you hear with wide dispersion speakers? Which more accurately reproduces the experience?

I agree. A live experience is much, much more similar to the Dipole sound and presentation of the IRS. That said, I'm looking to go the 'other' direction and I'm less interested in live sound and more interested in what they are doing in the recording studio, or small venue with 3-4 acoustic instruments/vocals in a well designed acoustically-correct venue. In that respect I think the psyco-acoustic play of 3D imaging in my smaller room, matches what was recorded.

2 completely different types of sound and presentation. Spent years with Type One and now I'm leaning toward Type Two.

 

[Inspiribomb]

Its like a revelation when you first hear that palpable, pinpoint image. Lots of things I want to say, but I'll save it for when you visit to hear my new gear next week. Congrats, and enjoy your new world

 

[cradeldorf]

Can you get imaging from regular speakers like my 604's or do you really need the flat esl type of speakers? also does or did anybody ever make a crossbreed type, where you have the flat mylar type of diaphragm but it's moved by a typical bass driver?

 

[Susurus]

First imaging I heard was an accident, the DQ-12's surrounds had broken in and they managed to somehow overcome the odd-shaped room open to the dining/kitchen.

They 'snapped' into focus. Unmistakable.

Spicas are supposed to stand out too, they are time/phase coherent after all.

cradeldorf yes there are some super sounding unusual designs. The larger DQs have limited baffle upper drivers atop acoustic suspension bass. So some of the airiness of planars but more dynamics if you have the amps to drive them. Check Vandersteens too for hybrid open/closed. The Bertilagni used multiple conventional movers on a flexible styrofoam sheet. Tradeoffs. Not as fast as Maggies or e-stats (what is?) but a nice airy midrange and less placement sensitive. I think of those as the 'anti-ESS'.

My large planars could soundstage. The image could be there too, but just scaled funny.

The hand-matched drivers and xovers in the Hales can micro-image. Disect even. Dynamics there too. But that's not an easy speaker to find and they were rather expensive...

If you can live with limited frequency extension/dynamics, try Quads; point-source-ish planars.

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[shimniok]

Sounds really cool. I hope I get to experience that some day. My soundstage is pretty vague and not much depth. I think I have to step up several notches in speakers to get to the place you describe. Thanks for all the hints and tips!

 

[Susurus]

Try this maybe. Your 117 with vinyl in tone bypass, or with a digital source use CD-direct mode.

Moderate level, not too loud. Must have a well-mastered source. A live album with minimal mikes and minimal doctoring/screwing up by the mixing engineer perhaps.

Ready?

Put your Bostons on stands, tweeters at ear level when sitting. Try a symmetrical room with nothing else in it (or very minimum). Put them far far far far away from walls. Carpet or rugs in front, rugs on walls behind help.

Placement test trials: the fun part. Try in increments. Start very close together, and slowly separate them farther apart, each time go listen from the apex of an equilateral triangle with your speakers, this means each time you separate the speakers more, you listen from farther away.

Resist the temptation to toe-in at this point.

Let us know if it 'clicks in focus'.

Measure it. Keep the speaker distances the same and you may be able to transfer them closer to the back wall now. This can improve your bass. (And you can let some furniture back in the room, but try to maintain symmetry in the acoustic space.)

Try a different source, some will, some never will. :gigglemad

 

[frperdurabo]

Do you hear pinpoint imaging when you listen to a live concert, or is it more diffuse like you hear with wide dispersion speakers? Which more accurately reproduces the experience?

You are correct: pin point imaging doesn't happen in real life.

But recordings aren't real life. Microphones are usually closer - a LOT closer - than any spectator would sit IRL. (There are exceptions, mostly classical stuff from the "golden age"). So yes, pin-point imaging is not "real life," but pin-point imaging is what's in the master tape.

The more information your playback system can retrieve, the more recording artifacts you hear. Only you can decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[shimniok]

Played around with the DCM TimePieces (I expect that these are phase coherent since they are transmission line designs), and the rest of my main system... didn't really get the "holy cow" effect but did hear some improvements... and a few 'woah' moments. The DCMs seem rather persnickety about the source material... the stuff I thought was fairly good wasn't, the stuff I thought was really good, was actually incredible. Tried CD, phono, and R2R sources. Had good results on two Stereophile recommended discs and an Errato LP of baroque music that surprised me with how good it sounded tonally and detail wise (hearing the harpsichord amongst the rest of the group ?!). I can't of course empty my office... and it's small. Not ideal... needs wall treatments, etc. Maybe some day. I have those SMGs to fix...

 

[NumbDiver]

The saga continues (for those who care)...

I mentioned system synergy in a previous post, and damned if I'm not going to try and hammer it home again. There is a lot of good equipment out there. You know that; you all own it. Is yours the best? How 'bout your buddy's? Maybe mine is? I'm finding more and more that it's not who's best, but 'who works best with whom?'

My previous system sounded pretty damn good if I say so myself. Others have said it too, for whatever that's worth. Maybe they were just stroking me. If so...thanks! Anyway, it did sound very good. After trying many combinations of pres, amps & cables (and continually upgrading in price along the way), I had a good sounding 'system.' Good synergy I guess. Fast forward to my recent speaker trade and things took a few steps back. I gained in some areas, but in truth, I lost big in others. I know you could read it in the tone of my posts. My bed; I'll lie in it. Here I sit with some very good equipment that really made the Gammas sing. I get new speakers and...'ouch, those mids can get coarse and the highs can be grainy.' The difference from planars to cones? Vintage to new? Gammas were originally built to a higher price point? Room eq?

I fought it, and was losing patience. On full triode it was bearable, but parsecs away from the previous setup. Moving cables, speaker placement, different filter modes...baby steps toward getting better. I've never bothered tube rolling in the Baron for a few reasons; it sounds awesome as-is, it has 16 tubes to roll, and with its multitude of triode/pentode modes and variable feedback; it is already the amp of many voices. Anyway, short story is that 5881 tubes aren't well matched to the highly efficient Focus HD. The perfect sounding tube amp with the IRS (Hell, Bill LeGall of MillerSound runs a Baron on his IRS V!) just doesn't work with the Legacys. Not in its current form with 5881's. I'll be trying some E34LS pretty soon. That'll probably get me there, but we'll see.

System Synergy.
There are just too many things in play to assume they will all work together every time. Who here owns the best amp? Which cables are best? Tell you what; give them to me and let me try them in MY system, and I'll tell you what is best...for me. If anyone has read up on Chaos Theory, it applies here, as it does in weather prediction (or lack thereof). If any one small change happens in one of many sub sets; because of the integration and interactions between the subsets, it is very difficult to predict an outcome.

The Krell KSA-80 is in place now. 80wpc @ 8 ohms, and basically doubles down to 1/2 ohm. Pure class A gooey goodness. OH.MY.GOD. FINALLY!
:nutz::nutz:
:lmao::lmao::yes:

It's all back. Every fear is gone or waning now. No, I haven't adjusted for Maximum Blue Flame yet. Still a ways to go (there always is). I lost a bit of soundstage and airiness stepping away from the tubes. The tubes will be back (on top). I just gotta get that newer Iron Man costume or Bat-thingy for the Baron first. It'll prolly come as 12x E34LS and 4x Mazda 12ax7 drivers. Or maybe the 12x 6550 wing-c outputs I have downstairs. There is a small chance my favorite amp will never play nice with the Foci. If so, maybe there's a Music Reference RM-9 in my future. I dunno. It's about finding the best synergy with your gear. I'm on the right path now. Some would be happy here. I'm gonna keep wandering...:thmbsp:

sidenote: the Joule Electra is in for service and to have the gain lowered. I can't wait till its return.:scratch2:

 

[NumbDiver]

I guess where I'm going with this thread, other than a Legacy Focus Hd reivew, is we have all heard gear we don't like. Sometimes we form lasting opinions. How many times have we read polarizing reviews of horn speakers? Edgy, raw etc. Is it possible that they were driven with an amp that didn't work with them? Instead of writing-off an entire genre of speaker, mabye different equipment was needed to bring out their best? Different owners with different amounts of experince, have different expectations too.

I'm guilty of it. I bought a Sansui 9090 after reading so much about them. It's the only receiver I've ever bought. I hated it, and sold it quickly soon after purchase. Maybe I didn't try the right speakers? I auditioned some Verity Parisfal ($21k), and thought they were "chuffy" and just ok. Maybe true, maybe setup, maybe supporting euipment didn't match for good synergy.

Bottom line is I'm done making snap decisions about equipment that has been pretty much universally reviewed as good stuff. If I don't like what I hear, it may be a synergy issue and not the fault of the piece I'm trying to hear.

I'm not saying you can polish a pig. I'm saying that you can dress Jessica Alba in enough clothes, makeup, wig etc., to make even her look bad. And what a shame it would be to walk away from her without seeing her in her best light...