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Bracing or seperating tweeter/mid panel on RSIIs

240sx4u

240sx4u

Lunatic Member
Well folks, something has got to give here. I love my Infinitys but there are some things they just don't do as well as my other speakers. Detail/imaging/staging is the weakpoint. My mordaunt-short 860s are much better at it, and honestly better at bass despite having two small woofers.

The RSIIs are noticeably "smeared" compared to the Mordaunt shorts. Keep in mind, the MS860s retailed for about double what the infinitys went for. The RSIIs have a presence that the MS860s just don't have.

Speaking with Mister Pig, I think I am going to either brace the mid/tweeter panel or seperate it from the enclosure completely. Even at moderate levels I can feel the upper panel resonate from the woofers. The woofer enclosure is very sturdy, the upper panel is not.

I have several ideas on how to accomplish this and still have them look basically stock. Either bracing the top panel to the back of the speaker in a triangle type affair, or removing the panel and side pieces to trim them so they sit "over" the woofer enclosure without contacting it.

Anyone have any thoughts? Let's keep this discussion based on ways to stiffen or improve the RSII cabinet.

Evan
 
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you could try putting some more small braces at the wing joints. the triangle thing could work, too, but you'd want to be careful how you apply the pressure to the top of the panel. trimming the wings down is a no-no, you'll increase dipole cancellation and increase diffraction issues which will smear imaging.

have you recapped them yet?
 
I have found that "Detail/imaging/staging" to suffer if the tweeters on classic Infinity speakers are not separated by the recommended 7-10 feet. In my case, using RS-4.5s, this means violating the rule of always having the tweeters positioned on the inner side of the speaker (towards room center). Because my room is only 13 feet wide, inside tweeter positioning means only about 5 feet of tweeter separation resulting in less than desireable imaging and staging.

I found by placing the tweeters on the outside, the stage width and imaging blossomed and there even seemed to be more detail audible. If you have not tried this positioning, why not give it a whirl before making any changes to the cabinets or drivers?
 
I have already tried flipping them around left for right (good idea) They are currently about 7' apart or so. This is about as good as it can get in my current livingroom.

CDfac, when I refer to trimming the wings I am referring to the area where it contacts the lower enclosure. This would separate the lower enclosure from the top altogether. Bracing would obviously be the easiest. The objective is not to provide pressure, but to provide rigidity.

As for resale.. not too worried about it. I am really good at making changes that are not discernible to anyone except for the folks who already own a pair.

Evan
 
Bold move man :nono: I would be bracing and trying to make them as rigid as possible with cross structures as well as triangle pieces.I am with cdfac on this one.Think :scratch2: before you cut,once cut there is no going back.Good luck!
 
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Wow, sounds like an interesting project. I'd love to hear the results. Due to a previous traumatic memory induced by seeing a dismembered baffle, I have to vote for the bracing option.
 
You have RSII, not the RSIIa or RSIIb models? If so, I would not expect the cone mids and single front firing EMIT of the RSII to have the detail and imaging of the later IIa/b models that used multiple EMIM and EMIT drivers.

Isn't it just simpler to sell the RSII and enjoy the Mordaunt-Shorts? Why mod a perfectly good RSII, maybe someone else might enjoy it?
 
Yeah, I don't recall the correct nomenclature for the II,IIa,IIb honestly.

The Mordaunt-Shorts are fabulous speakers, but they don't have the whole package. The Infinitys seem to have the potential.

Andy, don't be a sally. Ill make you do the cutting at knife point! lmao.

Bracing is the easiest option honestly. I am too lazy to cut these up.

Evan
 
kmanusa said:
You have RSII, not the RSIIa or RSIIb models? If so, I would not expect the cone mids and single front firing EMIT of the RSII to have the detail and imaging of the later IIa/b models that used multiple EMIM and EMIT drivers.

Isn't it just simpler to sell the RSII and enjoy the Mordaunt-Shorts? Why mod a perfectly good RSII, maybe someone else might enjoy it?
Click to expand...

RS IIs have a front firing and a rear firing EMIT and the cone mids are open to the back.
 
I have seen a pair of these where the wings had separated from the box. Literally, the wings were separate, with a rectangular cut-out where the box should have been, and the box sitting separately. I believe they were made that way, originally. You MIGHT be able to separate them again that way, if the glue has aged and the wood shrunk sufficiently. Perhaps gentle taps with a rubber mallet from the bottom, on the wings near the box, would loosen/push it off?

I hesitate to suggest that, because I like these speakers as-is and would hate to see one damaged if it didn't want to come apart, but having seen one separated that way already, I know it is possible.

I'd make a couple of suggestions:

1. Play around with what is underneath the speakers. Set them on massive stone or sand-box slabs, if you can.

2. Put large, heavy sandbags on the top of the boxes, in the back. It will stop a lot of that vibration.

3. You might try other bracing and dampening on the back of the wings, but I haven't found it necessary.

4. Play with speaker placement and room treatment. What you've said about the limited distance you have between them may be the problem, and perhaps there is nothing you can to about it in your room, but try. My room is probably no better in width, but it is long and with a high ceiling, excellent surfaces (soft plaster over brick, linoleum on the floors) and strategically-placed furniture and doorways, wall hangings, etc...

5. Check your drivers and crossover. Your rear-firing EMITs are working properly, aren't they? And all of the three midrange cone drivers? You'd suffer sound symptoms such as you describe if any of them were off. Also, how are your crossovers? Have you recapped them? The three midrange drivers are not exactly a simple line array set-up; each produces a DIFFERENT sound, and they all have to be driven properly for that clear soundstage effect to work properly. I'd carefully check each of them, if you're getting the smearing you describe. It's not typical for properly-working, properly set-up RS II speakers, in my experience.


I'm surprised to hear you say these are smeared; mine give one of the most detailed and un-smeared soundstages I've ever heard, with only the two steps of a base and sandbags mentioned above. (My drivers have all worked fine since I got the speakers.) I suspect the room itself has a lot to do with that, but even within a good room, those steps (careful positioning, good, solid base and heavy sandbagging) made a very positive improvement. One of the things I like about these speakers, once they are set up right, is also how large the sweet spot is. You can get acceptably clear, detailed placement within a soundstage across a wider listening area than with most speakers; no horn-speaker "head in a vice" situation where the stage collapses if you lean your head a few inches. :no:

Good luck with tweaking your RS IIs; their sound is worth the effort, IMO.
 
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Evan, you didn't respond to my question about recapping the crossover. if you haven't done that yet, that will provide the single biggest improvement along the lines that you are seeking. after doing my QLS1's, the improvement in all aspects of imaging was night and day.
 
As far as I know he's recapped them successfully and they sound fantastic. Hell, he's the one who sold me on getting a pair for myself. I've heard his and they're incredible.

Evan, is it a question of placement, or comparables to the MS's? There is a big difference in rooms where these systems are located.
 
Okay Ill address the questions individually;

Cdfac, sorry I missed your question. Yes they have been fully recapped with dayton 1% caps. That was a real pain in the ass but very worth the time! All the drivers are working 100%

Arkay, you have hit the nail on the head when you describe the seperation of the enclosure from the top. The glue on my speakers isn't holding all that well anymore. At the very least they need a re-glue.

The smearing is not something you would notice unless I dragged my other speakers into the living room. They are kind of the opposite personality wise though. They are a bit more "sterile" than the infinitys but staging depth and bass is also fantastic. I might say they sound euphoric?

Yes, the room may very well have something to do with this situation but realistically I am limited in what I can do with placement. Where they are there still is a couple/few feet between them and the sidewalls too. I have them with the tweet/mid panel about 3, maybe 4 feet from the rear wall. My wife is very understanding. My ceilings are not very tall. I suspect your room is much better setup for these speakers Arkay.

Damping the top portion likely won't help a ton IMO, bracing is the real solution. I do plan on attempt to spike the speakers to the floor

This is a pretty interesting discussion, you guys are taking it pretty well. :yes:

Evan

Andy, I have been comparing speakers in the same room so I removed that variable.
 
I would expect you would need a lot of toe-in with these speakers to get decent imaging, the emit's do not have much horizontal dispertion above 10khz. If you have them pretty much parallel with the rear wall, I would expect they would sound as you describe.
 
Quick queston:
How are they coupled to the floor? Are the "bottoms" coupled tightly with spikes or something? I have gotten better results when the cabinet is coupled tightly to the floor.
D
 
I don't know. With my RSIIbs detail, imaging and staging are excellent. Maybe it's because of the EMIMs, or maybe it's my room (~25 x 20'). I have mine on 4 of Herbie's Giant Fat Gliders each.
 
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