Budget Preamp w/Built-In MC Stage?

[the-real-mandak]

You want to use the C-85 instead of the CX-1 or is it just the price you like?

One was sold for 250€ on eBay (buy now) lasted 2 hours, another vent for 396€ both on the 18 Feb.

 

[Yamaha B-2]

Of course, I would only want to sell for the $595.

 

[ginovino]

Greetings and thanks in advance for all thoughtful opinions! I'm putting together a new 2-channel system and now need a preamp to complete the package. The primary source will be a Thorens TD-320 with Denon DL-103R; I'll play CDs as well, but the line stage capability of the preamp will not be as important as the phono stage. The power amp will be an ATI 1502, which will put out about 220 wpc into the 4-ohm GMA Continuum-1's I picked up on a'gon. (Actually picked up the ATI there as well!)

Now my budget is $250-300, which I know is tiny and inconsequential, but, well, that's it for now, so my choice is likely to be limited to vintage solid state. Some of you audiokarma guys have convinced me to consider one of the older Yamaha preamps in the C and CX series. The other model I've read good things about is the B&K Pro-10MC.

Has anyone heard these units and have thoughts about how they compare? Are there other candidates I should know about? Over at a'gon someone has recommended a Nakamichi CA-5 and someone else has recommended an Adcom GFP-555. I just want the best MC sound possible within my budget. I'd love a tube unit, but that's not happening within my budget. I don't care whether it has a remote or not -- I'm looking purely for the best phono sound possible in a single-full-function preamp.

Thanks for all help, Rich

Please bear out my obvious bias and as viewed by some on this forum, a pomposity and know it all demeanor. My audio credentials while not technical are sonic and at one time commercial, having been a retail dealer.

Having previously owned one of these for years, the B & K PRO-10C preamp is a very excellent choice. It has a built-in switchable MC/MM & load adjustable phono amplifier, external power supply, gold plated Inputs, 6 high level inputs and also available with balanced Amplifier outputs. It is extremely tube like in its signature. Not extremely fast, though surprisingly clean with the right electronics/cables/speakers. Wide deep Soundstage. Smooth as glass presentation (slightly warmish). Very satisfying with a glass of wine or Cognac as your side. Non fatiguing, comfortable slippers. Sort of like Conrad Johnson, not ARC. It does so much right for the price, it’s hard to part company. I would suggest this for anyone before they forge ahead into REAL TUBES.

My First choice is my current and all time favorite- Bryston 12b-11b preamp. These are the same model with 2 phono inputs, the 12b having a built-in switchable MC amp, 2nd phono input is a MM input. 5 high level inputs and a 20 year warranty. The 11b shuns the MC amp circuit but has 2 phono inputs.

Both units are hard to come by even on Ebay. Originally introduced around 1985 and in the product line for nearly 10 years! FYI the following Bryston preamps have the same technology and sound philosophy .5b, 1b, 11b, 12b, BP20, Bp25. Expect to pay in the $400 range for the 12b & 11b models a little less for the .5b, 1b. Bryston is a higly envolved company and a pleaseure to deal with. They are very supportive of their older models and are the first to offer reasonable solutions to otherwise costly situations. Their gear is built like a tank and not particularly "pretty". But oOH how they perform!

By the lack of eBay or Audiogon availability that should indicate very few ever get sold off, like so many other brands. IMHO, these are light years ahead of the run of the mill house brands found in abundance among the local membership here and other forums. Middle of the road, i.e. Yamaha, Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, Toshiba, and others of that ilk abound as do their speaker mates. Both of the Byrston models are extremely revealing, almost surgically. Many audiophiles find them too much so. "Something’s are better left unheard". You need the very best front end Electronics etc. The better your gear, the better this unit becomes. FAST> DEEP>WIDE--none of the "kings new clothes" scenario. For this reason while not getting actually bad mouthed, you will hear comments like "Bryston is Bright"-- that is like saying "tubes are warm, have rolled off highs and, have fat flabby bottoms like trailer park wives!
If you want to peer deep into your system and have a cornerstone to build upon going forward, you would hard pressed to make better choices at this price point, just different choices.

Forget the Adcoms, Halfers, Dynacos, Soundcraftsmen, Carver, Sunfire, and a whole litany of wannabe's including Rotel preamps.Their not even in the same league of the B & K's and Brystons, PS Audio, McCormicks, Musical Fidelity, ARC Solid State, CJ, Sonagraphe of those which come to mind rapidly. I'm sure I could add more to this list. I stopped at the $400-450 Used range!

Admittedly I am sonically unfamiliar with the GMA speakers or ATI amps (A fast Google showed ATI Local NY area dealers are NOT "Audio Salons" per se. They appear to be Home theater specialty stores of no particular noteworthiness) does not infer your equipment selection is less than admirable. However, GMA speakers are a niche product whose cost of Full admission begins in the $7k range. Quite healthy to say the least and no doubt will appeal to a very snobbish (while not quite knowledgeable) audience. If they play as beautiful as they look, a new challenge to Marlin Logan, Wilson, Thiel, and Legacy to name a few! I need to do a little local listening, the GMA's have caught my Eye!

In fact some of the names now in Audio history were nobodies (Holman, Carver, Dynaco, McCormick just to name a few). I urge you take a walk down my suggested path, if nothing more than for an education in the brands I support in my aforementioned biased ran tings.

Hoped I confused you further! If so, that’s a good thing... Nothing is better than controversy!

 

[winegasman]

Admittedly I am sonically unfamiliar with the GMA speakers or ATI amps (A fast Google showed ATI Local NY area dealers are NOT "Audio Salons" per se. They appear to be Home theater specialty stores of no particular noteworthiness) does not infer your equipment selection is less than admirable. However, GMA speakers are a niche product whose cost of Full admission begins in the $7k range. Quite healthy to say the least and no doubt will appeal to a very snobbish (while not quite knowledgeable) audience. If they play as beautiful as they look, a new challenge to Marlin Logan, Wilson, Thiel, and Legacy to name a few! I need to do a little local listening, the GMA's have caught my Eye!

Very interesting and entertaining post. Of course, if I were able to afford $7k speakers I'd hardly be posting to a vintage ak forum looking for $250-300 preamp. In fact, Green Mountain Audio speakers start at $995 for new Europas, then move to about $3k for the Callisto, before ascending into the serious 5-digit models. I owned the first pair of Callistos off the production line, and was immediately hooked on the GMA house sound -- Roy Johnson, designer, founder, and owner of GMA is a strong, eloquent proponent of first-order crossovers and time-aligned driver placement. This design works for me (and I would think it would be of interest to you as well, since Thiel shares a similar design approach). But since I'm "poor," I had to sell my Callsitos to help cover expenses of my sabbatical. I was on the lookout for a speaker like the Callisto but with better low-end, since I don't like or want separate subs in my living room. Lo and behold, a guy offered a pair of GMA Continuum-1's on a'gon for about $800! They are about 10 years old, but it was for this speaker that Roy J. made many of his design break-throughs that he uses to this day. With built-in 10" woofers, time-alignment, first-order crossovers, I jumped on them. That's $800 for my speakers, not $7k or more! (I have it on good authority that these C-1's will sound better, more transparent, than the newer Callistos, while delivering the fuller, musical bottom end I desired. Of course, since I'm away on sabbatical I won't know for sure for a few more months -- oh the tease of it!)

Now I pulled the trigger on a Yamaha CX-800 because of solid positive recommendations here. No one was able to provide direct comparison between the Yamaha preamps and the B&K Pro-10MC; some favored the Nakamichi CA-5, and for phono only pete-the-b strongly recommended the Kenwood C2. Although I bought the CX-800, when I return to the states and set up my system and start earning money again, I plan to keep my eye out for a B&K as well, and will compare the 2. I did submit the highest bid for a Pro-10MC on ebay last week, but the reserve wasn't met and the guy hasn't returned emails asking him how much he wanted for the unit. There's another one on a'gon, but he's asking $315 for it and while I could squeeze the budget, I figure that the asking price is high -- since my "winning" bid for the one on ebay was $162.

Finally, before disparaging the ATI amp you might want to read about it on audioreview, where it has 19 reviews and a 4.89/5.00 rating. ATI, like many wise amp manufacturers, is catering to the home theater market, but they do make killer 2-channel amps for us music-first folks as well. At $350 shipped on a'gon, putting out 225wpc into my 4-ohm GMA speakers, with great high current in reserve, it seemed like one of the better buys in power amps I was going to find.

Thanks for your comments. Enjoy your system.

 

[bully]

OK, the Yamaha CX-800 should be a very fine preamp. Good deal there.
ATI is a child of the old SAE, and makes a very solid product by all I've heard.
Enjoy the rest of your sabbat. and don't jones too hard for your new stereo.

 

[ginovino]

B & K Sonata Pro-10c --Be aware!

Thanks for your thoughtful well written response to my musings.

When seeking the "Pro-10MC" be aware there appears to be a few "versions" of this unit out there. Even the b & K promo piece sort of compounds the problem.
The version I owned and recently sold(TOO LOW I might add, for shame!):

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/Pro-10MC/IMG1b.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/Pro-10MC/IMG1aaaa.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c227/ginovino/Pro-10MC/IMG1f.jpg

You will find a number of "Pro"-10MC with tone controls- various push button controls forTape loops etc, as well as a faceplate with a Stamped indented cosmetic appearance in two tone colors of the Gun metal blue..

These units are not PRO-10MC but rather just Sonata 10MC- The Pro Version did away with Tone controls entirely. Ergo the PRO designation. The regular 10mc is not as agressively sought after as the PRO version and is valued somewhat less in the Audio Bluebook.

It appears B & K chose to offer this version as Pro-10MC outside of the USA or so it seems. However,to my knowledge most of the past reviews of the Preamp have come with the model I owned and shown here.

I must admit the external power supply did add a certain level of noise reduction to the already quiet unit. I miss that on my Brytson, not because the Bryston is less quiet, but for the assurance that if the Torodial ever melted down they won't affect the Audio Circuit Boards. I assure you the external power supply weighed in at about 5 lbs! Thats as much as some of the preamps out there!

AS for the GMA speakers, from your comments I would likely enjoy the Time aligned & Phase corrected "sound" produced by them. IT's accurate......

At their website, when I saw home theater etc, I tended to look at the floor models first and saw the $7k & Up stickers thereby assessing those as the entry units. I bypassed the Home theater line completely believing there was nothing there to interest me. My apologies- I will revisit it.

AS for being rich/flush/cash heavy-- My humble audio beginnings began through my Ham radio hobbying. One cannot say that shortwave signal is high quality! Though through natural progression and building cheapies, I am at the place I am today. Certainly not at the forefront of audio Guru "ism", more like a Desert shiek who has been with 158 wives and has developed a respect for the qualities or lack thereof of each of them. While some of my rantings appear to proselytize they are merely attemtping to save the reader time, $$$ and energy from having to go through the learning curve as I and others before me.

Ultimately its whats in your wallet, the WAF, your listening environment, the music you prefer, how many LIVE perfomances you've experienced, The quality of associated equipment and most importantly, what level of capability is your hearing! You would be amazed how many people will have their eyes checked frequently and never their hearing--what? eh? huh? repeat that?
you know the types!

Admittedly the frequency response of my hearing has deteriorated appropriately over time (age related) though less so than many younger folks or so I'm told by my audiologist.

I am not speaking of the the high frequency drop off which occurs in the aging process, rather the flatness of the frequency range your hearing is able to discern. No audiophile would ever consider a piece of equipment whose response was 20hz<>25khz @ +(plus) or -(minus) 6db! Yet never consider their hearing is like + - 20db and more over that same range!

SO WHAT you say, " I like, what I like". Aha! would you still like it if your ears weren't acting like built-in tone controls? Case in point: ever encounter someone who just became dependant on hearing aids after many years of annoying folks with the: what? eh? huh? repeat that? Putting aside the fiddling with their controls, ever notice how frequency sensitive they become.. Not amplitude, but frequency...isn't that bright?, boy thats strong bass!, aren't those trumpets blaring? and so on....

It seems at the moment, I haven't been taken to task by the AK Audio Police or better known as the Keepers of the MOR Audio Faith. Give it a day or less.

To quote good old Shakespeare, "me thinks thou dost protest too much".

Yes I do! I tilt at windmills as well! and, I root for Rocky to beat Clubber even after seeing the movie a zillion times.

Just another stream of unsolicitated consciousness!