Building a new system - need your opinion

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bojanko

New Member
Hi all audio experts and lovers,

I am currently building my "forever system" (or at least a very long-term one) and would love a sanity check from the experienced ears here before I pull the trigger. I'll add as much details for you to help :)

I am based in Amsterdam (which means wooden floors w/without carpet) and my listening room is roughly 25-30 sqm. My listening habits are 70% Jazz/Vocals (Sade, texture, intimacy) and 30% Funk/Downtempo (Massive Attack, Jamiroquai, Talking Heads).

My listening habits are 70% of the time low to mid volumes (afternoon and night hours) and 30% mid to loud (daytime)

I am looking for a sound that is rich, textured, and "live," but still has enough grip to handle deep electronic bass without falling apart.

I am inspired by recent trips to Japan with their audio from the golden era, and would like to build the amp+turntable system using that equipment (rather than using some of existing stuff I already have here and there). For speakers I would like a modem UK stuff but with aesthetics that matches the Japan golden era. For amp I would love to see those VU meters moving :)
My plan is to spend up to 20k EUR / 25k USD.

Here is the shortlist I have worked on so far. I would appreciate your thoughts on the synergy, especially regarding the Speaker and Turntable choices.

1. The Amplification

  • Primary Choice: Luxman L-590AXII (Class A). I love the tone and the heat.
  • Alternative: I have also considered the newer Luxman L-507Z (Class AB) for better grip, but I am leaning heavily towards the Class A magic for the jazz vocals.
2. The Speakers (The Dilemma)

I need something that works well with the 30W Class A power but can still energize the room - hope the assumption is right

  • Candidate A: Tannoy Cheviot / Eaton (Legacy Series). I love the "live" feel and the point-source imaging. Seems like a classic match for Luxman.
  • Candidate B: Harbeth SHL5plus XD. I know the mids are legendary for Sade, but I worry about them handling Mezzanine by Massive Attack. Are they too polite?
  • Candidate C: Fyne Audio. (Vintage Classic series). Is this the "modern/better" Tannoy, or does it lose the soul? I was thinking Classic Vintage VIII
3. The Analog Front End (The Vintage Battle)I have narrowed it down to two specific vintage restored units available locally. Both are 230V units.

  • Option A: The "Midrange Magic" Setup
    • Table: Micro Seiki BL-91 (fully Restored).
    • Arm: SAEC WE-308SX (Double Knife Edge).
    • Cartridge: Koetsu Black Goldline.
    • Headshell: SAEC ULS-3X (Ceramic, ~18g).
    • My logic: The heavy mass of the SAEC arm + Ceramic shell (~29g total) seems like the perfect mechanical match to wake up the stiff Koetsu suspension. I'm hoping this gives me the ultimate vocal texture. Was also thinking about Phasemation PP-500 or My Sonic Lab Eminent GL (since I plan to go to Tokyo soon, I am also thinking about these more expansive ones since the prices there are 50% less than in EU)
  • Option B: The "Silent & Deep" Setup
    • Table: Luxman PD-310 (Belt Drive with VS-300 Vacuum Pump) / maybe PD-300
    • Arm: Fidelity Research FR-64S (Silver wired).
    • Cartridge: Phasemation PP-500.
    • Headshell: Yamamoto HS-3 (Boxwood, ~8g).
    • My logic: The vacuum hold-down + FR-64S steel arm should give terrifyingly deep bass and a dead-silent background, but maybe less "romance" than the Koetsu/Micro combo?
  • Option C: maybe some Yamaha or Pioneer (or Victor) that would be in the same level as these two Luxman/Micro Seiki

My Specific Questions:

  1. Speaker Match: Will the 30W Luxman Class A run out of steam with the Harbeths on bass-heavy electronic tracks? Are the Tannoys/Fyne Audio the safer bet for a "fun" all-rounder?
  2. Turntable Synergy: Given my bouncy wooden floors, is the massive mass of the Micro Seiki a safer bet than the suspended/vacuum Luxman?
  3. The "Soul" Factor: For a Jazz/ Sade lover, is the Koetsu Black on the Micro Seiki the undisputed winner, or does the FR-64S/Phasemation combo offer something better?
  4. Alternatives: Should I think about some Yamaha or Accuphase to match those Luxmans?
  5. Overall, what do you see here? am I ovethinking, missing something, does it all make sense (compatibility / harmonize vintage electromechanical vs modern amplification reliability)?

Bonus item: I would add another turntable just for fun, there I was thinking either Luxman pd121 or Thorens 160 (both fully restored and refurbished, am adding Thorens as an European "intruder" but only if it beats pd121)

Thank you very much for your insights!
 
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back before Tom added more cartridges to my collection we listened to a vintage Koetsu Black and Dynavector 23R. The Black seems to roll off top and bottom compared to the 23R. I don’t know if the Goldline has these frequency extreme limitations but I might suggest looking at the Dynvector cartridge line.

How will you verify the silver wiring in the 64s? Labeling needs to be there for this or an inspection. The s is part of the tonearm name, not an indication of the silver wiring.

The PD-121 isn’t a top Luxman, those are the 555, 444, 441 and 300 series you mention. The 300s would need to be refreshed and the vacuum verified as the seal can age and become less than useful.

The TD-160 is not in the same class as the other tables mentioned. I have a TD-160 Super with a Magnepan arm and it has been moved aside for a 125, 126, KD-600, all with Magnepan arms well not on the 126 yet, still enjoying the looks of the Black Widow. I like having both belt drive and direct drive tables. The 160 is much more susceptible to bouncy floors than the 125/126 which can absorb a lot more of that movement.

There are Kenwood tables, the Yamaha, Pioneer and Denon that can be nice. The Kenwood L-07D being the top unit but harder to find in excellent condition. There have been a few restoration threads on the BL-91, one on the phoenix (Phase Linear) board that make me like that table. So many very good to great tables from many different brands as the 70s became the 80s and a few years later until the CD made a high dollar TT less necessary for the major manufacturers to produce. I’m happy with my 126, KD-600 and KD-500 which although not quartz locked has speed controls and great ergonomics compared to the 600 and someone posted about this one cheap in the middle of the US and another aker said he’d help me acquire it. I gave in, I had a tonearm for it, I liked em when I owned on years ago and right not it is the primary table just based on where it is positioned in the rig with three tables.

I like the Luxman sound of old and comments on the new sound seems to indicate it is one of the best brands out there these days. Getting the proper power for you speakers is what I would look for. I can’t comment on the Tannoy as the pair I had, fully working, no upgrades or changes just sounded bad. I don’t know why and the offer I got kept me from investigating and changing things. They were Cheviots.

Hyfi was here on ak when he got his Fyne speakers. He spoke well of them. I’d like to hear them, well that and the rest of your system when you get it set up. When is the open house for this?

Does you 275-330sq ft room had space to move the speakers into the room or are you limited to positioning? This can make speaker choice limits to consider.

Looking forward to your comments and selections as you put this system together.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I forgot to mention that the Luxman pd121 or Thorens 160 would not be my primary turntable. I would add them just because I can get one in perfect shape but not a priority in this stage (more as a Nice to haves one day). So fully agree with you they are not in the same league as BL-91 or PD-310/300. Also, I would prioritize vinyl over digital. For that I have my Eversolo (DMP A6 Master Edition Gen 2) and hope would work just fine with an amp (not "killing" the sound making it too precise and clear). The room/speaker setup is flexible. Speakers could move up to being cca. 4m apart. I would be some 3-3.5 meters from speakers.
 
Good luck, from the looks of things you should be able to put together a nice system. Your method is a bit different looking for a few specific items. It will most likely be much more costly than buying items that are close to you that pop up priced right. As far as a wood floor, I would think a SOTA table would be a good choice, they also have vacuum platters.

Have no clue as what is offered in the Netherlands but just looking up on FB there seems like you could put together a very nice system.
 
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Thanks for your inputs, guys! Appreciate it. I don't know if I picked the right path but I do have a few items I would like to own and make them the center piece of my new setup. So I assumed aligning it between (turntable + cartridge vs tonearm vs speaker choice) to achieve a desired vibe (warm, vintage sound, jazzy and clean). Speakers and amp shouldn't be a problem in the Netherlands. Not sure if I will be able to try it all out in person due to fact some retailers don't have all brands covered (have Accuphase, don't have Luxman, have Tannoy, don't have Harbeth). Turntable will be a bit of a challenge. For that I am ok to import from Japan or elsewhere.
@Ken why do you say my method is different? Just out of curiosity, not that I am challenging you :)
I hope my approach and selection of each component should solve the main challenge (that vibe and sound I am looking for) along with being compatible and logical. WDYT?
 
I think the search of local used offerings will bring a lot of choice and maybe Ken thinks this would provide nice savings. But you have determined that there are a few pieces you want in your system. This may mean you pay a bit more than getting an equally good model but getting what you want can be worth the upcharge.

If you listen to electronics at one store and get an idea of how the Accuphase compares to the Luxman you can keep those differences noted when you go to different stores to hear speakers. Listening to different amps with different speakers at different stores really shouldn’t be too much of an issue because speakers are so different in sound whereas the electronics, not so much.

The other big difference is the cartridge (nail) used. The local dealer here talks to customers about the sound they want and recommend a nail. When they go set up the system at the customers home with the selected cartridge there is the possibility that it is not the sound signature the customer might want determined after some time of listening, week or month, depending. The discussion continues about the good and bad, what was missing and such and another cartridge is installed. This is usually the extent needed for satisfaction for the few that were not thrilled with the first cartridge. It is hard for a store to have a selection of over $1500 cartridges to audition at the store.
 
bojanko said:
Speaker Match: Will the 30W Luxman Class A run out of steam with the Harbeths on bass-heavy electronic tracks?
Click to expand...
I highly doubt it. I have heard the same Harbeths, but not with such music. How loud (measured) do you listen?

As for politeness, that combo will have what used to be called a 'sweet top end', which I find highly desirable. Zero gratuitous tizz.
 
You are on the path to a great system.

Personally I would go for a pre-poweramp combo. Gives more flexibility when it comes to matching amp to speakers.
And since you aren't afraid to by old second hand turntables I think you should consider an idler (Garrad 301/401, Thorens 124).
I give you two thumbs up regarding Fidelity Research FR-64S, it's great tonearm. I run SPU:s on mine.
Anyhow you have a great journey ahead of you.
 
My method is not to just go out and buy a specific item and pay the going price. I buy mostly used, other than carts, and wait till something really special comes up at a great price. Say rather than look for a specific item have an open mind for something different but will acheive the goal but at a great price. Say like instead of the table you listed, I see a great price on a Yamaha GT2000 turntable, or a SME, SOTA, clean great shape but when the price is reduced due to waiting for something with a reduced price. I think this gives me an opportunity to try things without losing money as if you buy right you can reseill it and get all your money back or even make a few extra dollars, until you find the perfect fit.
 
I would love to try both Luxman and Accuphase with Tannoys and Harbeth, will see if local dealers can accommodate that.

As for the turntable, I guess I have a bit of a fixation on Japanese vintage gear hence the intent to pair something like BL-91 or a direct drive e.g. a vintage Luxman (there is one nice and refurbished with Stax-ua-7 tone arm that I think would be a great combo.).
I am absolutely open to hear what you guys would recommend when it comes to turntable+tone arm+cartridge that for a specific TT (BL-91) would produce the best jazz/vocal experience. So my listing of each of those components was based on compatibility vs desired output, clear vocals, jazz ambient 100%.

As for Preamp/Poweramp combo is concerned, I wouldn't exclude it @mad shadows , good recommendation but I think Lux/Accuphase combo would seriously eat my budget :)

And I agree with @Ken Boyd approach, I have a list of those TTs, so far they are all in Nice to haves :) I would change my mind if there is a great deal for a great price (Nice Pioneer PL-70L / or 50L , or similar.
I have ran into pretty fine deals for GT2000 but so far I am skipping it.


I will be in Japan next month so hope I decide on TT and its parts cause it would be a pitty not to leverage Japanese prices on / shells / arms, and specially on cartridges like Hana, Phasemation, Koetsu and such (prices being 40-50% lower there than in US/EU)
 
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