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C2200 + Phono Stage or C2300 or C500

howiebrou

howiebrou

Super Member
Whilst I am very happy with my C2200 as a pre-amp for my Audio Aero Prestige SACD player and also my Avid Acutus TT, I am slightly limited by the MM only phono stage of the C2200.

Choices;
A. Step Up transformer and then into line stage (I think?) of C2200 for MC cartridge. $$
B. Step up tranformer and then into line stage of Audio Aero CDP which has analogue inputs as well and sell C2200. -ve $!
C. C2300 $$
D. Separate phono stage (eyeing the Aesthetix Rhea) into Audio Aero and sell C2200- break even
E. Separate phono stage into C2200 $$$
E. C500 which makes my system fully balanced. $$$

How would the Aesthetix compare with the Phono stage of the C2300 or C500? Presumably just from a cost point of view, I would guess that the Aesthetix phono stage would produce a better quality sound than the C2300 phono stage.
I am not sure about the C500 at all (is the phono stage the same as the C1000 one? Ron?)

I don't think a step up transformer is the way forward. I like the use of a preamp. I guess what I am trying to decide is whether it makes more sense to get a C500 or to get a separate phono stage as the final cost is approximately the same (C500 = C2200 + Aesthetix). Of course if the analogue preamp of the Audio Aero is good, then a phono stage could be had by selling my C2200 and no extra money is needed but I just don't know.......:scratch2:

What would you do.......?
 
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Hi Howie

Given the quality of your table and arm you are in definately in need of exploring LOMC's.
I don't think a or b or D have any long term musical merit.
You need to listen to the C2300 or C500 first to see if you like the MC phono stage.
Seperate phono stage is what I would look at.

I have heard the Rhea and frankly any MC with gain under .5mv it is going to be way too noisy!!. The Aesthetix IO, on the other hand is a completely different beast, althought you can hear tube noise, but it sounds wonderful - I have demoing one now.

See if you can listen to a few phono stages like Pass Xono, Art Audio vinyl one, manley steelhead or Audio research PH5 or PH7 to name a few. You will more than pleasantly surprised how much more enjoyment you have to go in the analog chain.

cheers
 
I’m in a similar state myself, wanting to get the most out of my vinyl playback. I have tried a step-up (VAS Audio mc-1) into my MA2275 phono stage with my Shelter 501 (also directly with a Goldring 1042 MM). The results are very good, but far from state of the art. (My Trichord Dino + is better in every way). I suspect the phono stage in the c2200 is similar in sound quality to the MA2275. If you are a casual vinyl listener a c2200 + step up may be all you need.

Sounds like you are like me however, vinyl playback is critical to me. I’ve been eying the c2300 or upgrading my external phono stage. The c2300 would be a fabulous purchase if and only if the phono stage can beat external stages in the 2K-3K range.

Anyone hear the new c2300 or c500’s yet. We are most curious about the phono sections!
 
Howie, sounds like your Audio Aero CDP has a solid engineering approach to the analog preamp section. Have you tried listening to it with any other sources and compare that to the C2200? If it sounds better than the C2200, you may want to explore outboard phono stage such as ARC PH5/7 or Aesthetix. I wonder if it is possible to use the analog out of the CDP back into itself through the preamp stage and out to the amps vs. CDP to C2200 to amps? :scratch2: By the way, what is up with the "soldered in" 6021W tube with no socket in your CDP? What happens when the tube goes bad, you would have to bring it in for service.

"The volume control - in the analogue domain to
avoid any loss of resolution - is performed by a high
quality “ladder” attenuator. Whatever the volume set-
ting, this component is invisible to the signal. The buffer
stage is performed by carefully selected NE5534 mono
op amps and professional line drivers for balanced out-
puts. This preamp output, with a 7Vrms maximum out-
put voltage, allows driving most of the amps on the
market while you can also use a separated preamp by
setting volume control on -10dBr, which will simulate a
2Vrms fi xed output without loss of quality."
 
howiebrou said:
B. Step up tranformer and then into line stage of Audio Aero CDP which has analogue inputs as well and sell C2200. -ve $!
Click to expand...

This will not work: a step-up will not give you phono correction, only gain, and thus you still need a phono preamp.

howiebrou said:
I don't think a step up transformer is the way forward. I like the use of a preamp.
Click to expand...

Howie, a step-up transformer is simply a way to connect a low output moving coil cartridge to a regular moving magnet phono preamp; it provides gain and impedance matching. Whether it's a way forward or not is entirely a matter of preference, which I would (and did) form solely on listening. A number of top-level phono stages use a step-up transformer internally for this purpose; Manley Stellhead does as does Shindo.

howiebrou said:
What would you do.......?
Click to expand...

If I had the money burning my pocket, I'd get the C500 just for the hell of it. More realistically, I'd get the step-up -- it can be done very cost effectively -- and play with the MM phono of C2200 at least for a while...
 
If the phono section of the C1000 is any indication of how the C500 phono section will sound, I say go for the C500. When I had my C1000T I found the phono section sounded close to as good as my BAT VK-P10 phono preamp (the BAT sounded a little smoother to me). I still liked the BAT a little better but I had problems with the BAT breaking on me so I just used the C1000 for my LPs.

I just did an install and setup on a system using the Aesthetix Rhea with a C2200 and a MC2102, it sounded fantastic. I actually liked the Rhea better than the Aesthetix Io, the Io had way too much tube noise. The Rhea was a little noiser than the BAT VK-P10 but the build quality of the Rhea looked much better than the BAT.

The local dealer has a C2300 ordered but it is not here yet. So I can not comment on the sound, but on paper it looks like the C2300 will have a fantastic phono section.

There are many good choices out there.

Victor
 
The only time I have heard the Aesthetix Rhea is using a Continuum Caliburn TT :music:. This went through a MBL 6010 pre-amp and then to MBL 9011 / 101E etc. Not bad at all.........:D

Ruffoc kind of nailed it on the head. If the C2300 / C500 phono stage can match a separate phono stage which costs 3-4k then I will consider them. If not, I would prefer to go for a separate stage.:yes:

Serge, not sure if the CDP can output itself into its own preamp section. I don't see why not. The CDP actually sounds better direct to the MC2000. Lots more detail. The C2200 sounds a little muffled in comparison but I need it for my TT. The AA can actually output over 6V! Yes, I will have to get it dealer serviced when the tube goes bad :tears: I wish it was in a socket like the Metronome CD5 Signature.

Makarushka, thanks for the info about the step- up devices. I know nothing about them. C500 would be perfect if its phono stage can beat a AR PH5 or Rhea but I wouldn't want to get the C500 and then still have to get another phono stage :no: This will be a very difficult comaparison to make!

Victor, does anyone know if the C500 stage is more similar to the C1000 phono stage or is it identical to the C2300 phono stage :scratch2:

Thanks all.

howie
 
The latest stereophile Art Dudley article reviews a number of step ups and reports on some good matches at different prices. The proper cart to trannie match is crucial. I thought MC used step ups in the mc phono section sometimes. All of us with nice turntables are interested in this issue. What high output carts are you using?
 
1coastbluz said:
The latest stereophile Art Dudley article reviews a number of step ups and reports on some good matches at different prices. The proper cart to trannie match is crucial. I thought MC used step ups in the mc phono section sometimes. All of us with nice turntables are interested in this issue. What high output carts are you using?
Click to expand...

I am using a Grado Master Reference MM cart. I ran into a Mr. Van den Hul a few weeks ago and he kindled my interest in MC carts :nono:

howie
 
The Grado is a nice cart a little laid back for my tastes but that could be a good thing if you still have the stock chinese 12's. Clearaudio maestro is livelier and the musicmaker from cartridgeman livlier still. HOMC sumiko blackbird was as dull as the Grado without its body especially in the mids. Stereophiles Dudley states the denon 103(LOMC)$300 and Auditorium 23$975 built to be used with the denon worked incredibly well and seemed likes the best $1200 combo for my c2200. The tranny also mated well with emt$$$ based carts as the BIG next step if you wanted. The issue was oct 2007 and was more informative than usual and at least helps illuminate why some like trannies and some didn't... a bit of a pain i a except for turntable hobbiest. Hope this helps and doesn't spook ya
 
C500 would be perfect if its phono stage can beat a AR PH5 or Rhea but I wouldn't want to get the C500 and then still have to get another phono stage
Click to expand...
Looks like we are having the same dilemma. :scratch2:
 
howiebrou said:
Victor, does anyone know if the C500 stage is more similar to the C1000 phono stage or is it identical to the C2300 phono stage :scratch2:
Click to expand...
Unless someone from McIntosh answers this it is too soon to tell.

It is possible that all 3 will be using the same basic phono preamp parts. It looks like all 3 will be adjustable from the remote which tells me they may all be the same. It really does not make much sense to develop a different phono stage for every preamp they sell.

Victor
 
Victor said:
Unless someone from McIntosh answers this it is too soon to tell.

It is possible that all 3 will be using the same basic phono preamp parts. It looks like all 3 will be adjustable from the remote which tells me they may all be the same. It really does not make much sense to develop a different phono stage for every preamp they sell.

Victor
Click to expand...

Although there has to be some distance between the various models or no-one will buy the C1000 :yes:

Ron, any details you can divulge on the phono stages of the 2200, 2300, 500 and 1000???

howie
 
PHC1 said:
Looks like we are having the same dilemma. :scratch2:
Click to expand...

Looks like lots of us getting back into Vinyl are having this problem. In an ideal world the C500 phono stage will be a killer and make life simpler :yes:

Anybody familiar with the Sutherland Phd battery phono stage?


howie
 
Victor has a point about the phono stages probably being the same design. As is often the case with McIntosh philosophy, the C500 will probably have less inputs and flexibility as compared to the C1000 as a preamp overall but not necessarily a distant second when it comes to sonic performance. How they compare to some of the better phono stages out there, I just don't know for sure but I haven't heard anyone complain about the C1000 phono stage yet.
 
Shane said:
The PHD is very pure sounding, extremely quiet and laid back. It lacks large scale dymanics and PRAT.
Click to expand...

Do i take it that it might not be the best match for my tube equipment (with or without a relatively laid back grado mm)?

Would the AR PH5/PH7 also fall into this tubey laid down sound?
 
Victor said:
If the phono section of the C1000 is any indication of how the C500 phono section will sound, I say go for the C500. When I had my C1000T I found the phono section sounded close to as good as my BAT VK-P10 phono preamp (the BAT sounded a little smoother to me). I still liked the BAT a little better but I had problems with the BAT breaking on me so I just used the C1000 for my LPs.

I just did an install and setup on a system using the Aesthetix Rhea with a C2200 and a MC2102, it sounded fantastic. I actually liked the Rhea better than the Aesthetix Io, the Io had way too much tube noise. The Rhea was a little noiser than the BAT VK-P10 but the build quality of the Rhea looked much better than the BAT.

The local dealer has a C2300 ordered but it is not here yet. So I can not comment on the sound, but on paper it looks like the C2300 will have a fantastic phono section.

There are many good choices out there.

Victor
Click to expand...

From the 2300 spec sheet posted a while back it appears that the design philosophy of the 2300 phono is very similar to the C1000t. See post http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127150

Is it a pipe dream to hope that we will get c1000t performance from the phono sections in the c500 and c2300? I’m hoping that the phono sections of the new 2300 will be on par with separate boxes in the 2-3K range. Time will tell. Look forward to your reviews.

C
 
howiebrou said:
Do i take it that it might not be the best match for my tube equipment (with or without a relatively laid back grado mm)?

Would the AR PH5/PH7 also fall into this tubey laid down sound?
Click to expand...

NOt neccessarily, my comments are that depending on your musical tastes it may be just what you are looking for, or too much.
personally I think it will slow down what you have now as I have heard the 2200 MM and the C46 MM stage and they are reasonably lively.

No the ARC PH5 and 7 are different. The PH5 is quite neutral and good for the price and the PH7 is state of the ART for a phono stage, quiet, dynamic, smooth, transparent and musically captivating. Hard to even tell both are from the same brand stable.
The PH7 only has 57.5db gain, so you probably would be best to go with a MC cartridge of .5mv or more if you can't demo in your system.
That is the only reason why I have not bought one as my MC's go down to .25mv, however with my new speakers I will try to listen to the PH7 again.

Contary to what Victor said the IO is awesome and it is quieter than the rhea, however both are not quiet like SS or fet/tube or tube/transformer phono sections.

too many analog choices at present.
 
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