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C2700 or C53?

M

Metallo

New Member
Hi all,

I am on the market to re-create my system, almost from scratch.

I listen mostly to heavy-metal, progressive rock, I also like blues and Gershwin!
95% of my staff is on vinyl and I use a Linn Sondek LP12 as a source.
As a digital source, Denon DVD 2900 is my source.

I am looking at the Dynaudio Contour 60i as possible speakers, but have not listened to them yet, so this is all to see.
I tested the Klipsch Cornwall IV with a C2700 + MC1502 combo, I was very disappointed, very metallic to my ears.

Bass is very important to me, and I think the C53 would be a better match, but I know I would likely be losing warmth in the sound.

Oh I forgot to mention that I would like to combine any of the two units with an MC312.

Since this is my first experience with Mc gear, I may ask a silly question here...but are the interconnects supplied when you buy a Mc preamp, or not? If not, any suggestions on which cables to use without spending a fortune?

I'd love to read your thoughts .

Thank you!
Alex
 
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Hi Alex, I don’t own C53 or C2700, but I own C52, and a C2200. I’m a bit surprised the sound of the 2700 and 1502 with Cornwall was metallic. From what I’ve read, Cornwalls and tubes are typically a great match. My guess is there isn’t much difference between C53 and C2700. The C2200 is reportedly the most “tube sounding” of that group of C2200 - C2700. Maybe an older McIntosh tube amp would be a better fit with the Cornwalls.

To answer you question, I’ll say I pick the C53 if you like to use tone controls. If you can get by with just bass and treble, go for the C2700. Tube rolling could offer some additional sound shaping to get it dialed in. Both are very nice preamps in my opinion.

I’ve kind of given up on demoing equipment with any success before buying. I feel like it’s more important true product have the features you need. Then you tune it to your room. So many things can influence sound, interconnects, sources, speaker wires, room treatments, and placement just to name the obvious. Maybe the source used for the demo was causing the sound to be tilted up. In your set up is the only way to measure performance.

I’d buy the one with the most features you need, and then start getting it integrated into your room and related.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
 
Onebean said:
Hi Alex, I don’t own C53 or C2700, but I own C52, and a C2200. I’m a bit surprised the sound of the 2700 and 1502 with Cornwall was metallic. From what I’ve read, Cornwalls and tubes are typically a great match. My guess is there isn’t much difference between C53 and C2700. The C2200 is reportedly the most “tube sounding” of that group of C2200 - C2700. Maybe an older McIntosh tube amp would be a better fit with the Cornwalls.

To answer you question, I’ll say I pick the C53 if you like to use tone controls. If you can get by with just bass and treble, go for the C2700. Tube rolling could offer some additional sound shaping to get it dialed in. Both are very nice preamps in my opinion.

I’ve kind of given up on demoing equipment with any success before buying. I feel like it’s more important true product have the features you need. Then you tune it to your room. So many things can influence sound, interconnects, sources, speaker wires, room treatments, and placement just to name the obvious. Maybe the source used for the demo was causing the sound to be tilted up. In your set up is the only way to measure performance.

I’d buy the one with the most features you need, and then start getting it integrated into your room and related.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Thank you for your feedback.

Normally, someone who listen to vinyl most of the time, would take a C22 in consideration, but I do not want limit myself to future upgrades in the digital area, also I wouldn't know how to plug in the Denon.

I was surprised and disappointed with the outcome of the Cornwall IV, but even worst when they demoed them using Spotify as a source. I told them: are you kidding me??? They did not have a turntable available (my visit was planned a month in advance), so they put on a CD, but they only had a few CDs and none with the genre of music I liked.
:mad: So I left, pretty disappointed, because I was expecting much more from the Cornwall IV. That demo proved that the dealer had no interest at all in preparing the demo in advance, as basically they said people buy them even by listening through Spotify :mad::mad::mad:. They also said that many people find them metallic, so either you like them or not. Obviously, I am used to a different standard when it comes to demo hi-end gear, but possibly this level of attention to detail and how to prepare everything well and properly does not longer belong to this world?

Anyways, talking about the interconnects?
Are they included?

Thank you,

Alex
 
Is your Denon single ended or balanced out? Either way the C2700, C53, and the new version of the C22 have you covered. As far as the DAC goes, the C22 has none, and the C2700 / C53 likely have the DAC2 module that is future upgradable.

As for RCA and balanced cables, no, they are not included with the preamp. These are highly subjective pieces, and I believe they can be the difference between good sound and great sound. I’m pretty cost conscious when it comes to cables, but if you are spending the money for a nice preamp, amp, and speakers, you should budget some money for interconnects and speaker cable. Figure out your budget and ask on AK for cable suggestions.

On the topic of Cornwalls, if you are into metal, there are likely many better choices. With 300 watts of McIntosh power, you have a lot of choices. The usual suspects for Mac pairings include Sonus Faber, McIntosh speakers, B&W, and I’d guess the Dynaudios you mentioned would fall into that group. There may be some treasures on the used market that would meet your expectations. I’ve read the larger McIntosh speakers have tremendous bass, some others might require a subwoofer. Spend some time here in the McIntosh forum and see what people are talking about.

As for unprepared dealers, welcome to 2022. There are great dealers out there, and there are just as many operating like you experienced. Hopefully you live in an area with multiple dealers and can find one to actually provide a service. If you can’t find one to help you, you’re left to buy and try. For those of us with limited dealer support, we buy as cheap as possible, try a product, and sell it if we can’t make it work.
 
Onebean said:
As for unprepared dealers, welcome to 2022. There are great dealers out there, and there are just as many operating like you experienced. Hopefully you live in an area with multiple dealers and can find one to actually provide a service. If you can’t find one to help you, you’re left to buy and try. For those of us with limited dealer support, we buy as cheap as possible, try a product, and sell it if we can’t make it work.
Click to expand...

Nope, no dealers at all in my area, I drove 700 miles to visit that dealer, there are others maybe at 300 miles from me, but I have lost my trust.

When you say buy/resell, on Canuck there is a lot, so I would guess when you see accounts with many transactions and positive reviews, they do this regularly and clearly that is a business for them.
People like me, would likely lose money by buy / reselling, which might end up is an costly thing.

Cables: the most debated and debatable topic everywhere, I guess I will have to figure this out myself.

I thought the C22 did not have a digital input for CD, but I need to re-check. Taking that way would imply to buy a separate DAC.

Alex
 
I assumed your denon has internal DAC for all formats it can play. If that is the case, you would use single ended or balanced out to connect to the C22 or any of the other preamps. I don’t think any of the Mac preamps can convert SACD or DVD-A if your denon can play those formats.
 
I heard both at Audio Classics in March this year and the C 53 sounded great with a Denon MC cartridge and using my Mac Book pro feeding the DA2 module. But the 2700 sounded better with the Mac Book Pro on some of my streamed digital down loads. I wouldn't buy the 2700 never the less because I don't want to deal with tubes and less signal to noise ratio with the speakers I am using that will expose those kind of issues. I also don't like the lack of flexibility of either of the new pre-amps. No loudness control, no compander, no mode selector. I use stereo reverse Quite often. No processor loops, no record selector, and I can't believe a pre-amp that has phono inputs that does not have a LF filter and a HF filter. If you want something more current look for the C-22 III and buy a separate DAC. Buying a DAC is like buying a phono cartridge. Research and auditioning are required for both. They can also be easily upgraded when needed.
 
Thank you all for your responses and valuable advice.

When buying used equipment from a private, on the internet, in addition to the original packaging and manuals, first owner or not question, if it is not possible to listen to the product due to the traveling distance, I would like to ask the serial number to verify with McIntosh 1) if the number is legit, and 2) which dealer originally sold it.
Does it make sense?
Anything else I am missing?

It is the first time for me I am on the used market, so any advice is very welcome! :)

Thank you,
Alex
 
twiiii said:
I No processor loops, no record selector, and I can't believe a pre-amp that has phono inputs that does not have a LF filter and a HF filter.
Click to expand...

It's my understanding that most if not all of the recent McIntosh preamps have a permanent subsonic filter engaged on the phono inputs. And if you need an HF filter, you need better and cleaner records.

jblnut
 
Well if new anything about LP's from the early 50's you know about the tape hiss and wouldn't be saying that. And After the Audio philes started screeming Mac removed the 30 HZ low pass filter and moved it musch lower. So if you have LP's from the 50's and 60's be they great Red Seal, Columbia, or even DG you will hear a lot of low freq vinyl noise, even if you bought them new your self and havedub them to tape and then to CD so they wouldn't deteriorate. Then you onlt play them maybe once or twice a year the noise and rumble are still there and you need the filters. Even the new LP's that sell today for over $40.00 can have issues and the graphic controls dopn't do the JOB. Why do you think the the MP 1100 has the different record pl;ayback curves and the necessary filters. If the filters are good enough for a MP 1100 why not a C53 or C 2700?

Then people wonder why I keep my old 12 band Program EQ and C-34 with a MP 100 and a 3BX and.119. You just never know when a great LP will have some inherent issues. I really like to save my pre-digital DG LP's because they are much superior to the CD and streaming reissues.
 
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You do you man. There is effective subsonic filtering on McIntosh phono stages which is what most people need. Other more obscure situations would probably be better handled with an outboard EQ anyway.

Jblnut
 
First off, the MC312 is an excellent power amp that will easily power almost any speaker you choose. I'd pick the C53 preamp mainly because of the 8-band analog equalizer which is excellent, and the digital inputs that will allow you to utilize the very good onboard DAC. I've found the modern McIntosh preamps to have very good phono sections so don't feel like you'll be skimping in that area. One thing to keep in mind is that the Klipsch Cornwall IV will sound forward no matter if you use tubes or solid state upstream. They have very good bass and will play smoothly at extreme volumes, if that's your cup of tea. But, playing an hour or so of Judas Priest at extended volume on them could make your ears ring. Back in the 80's, we used Cornwalls at many outdoor parties. There's nothing better for outdoor sound. As Onebean mentioned, the MC312 really opens up your speaker options. Check out the Sonus faber Sonetto line of speakers. Even the top floor stander in that line can be had for the same money as the Cornwalls and have a much more controlled sound that your types of music really need for long term listening. As far as cabling goes, Cardas Audio seems to work very well with McIntosh electronics and about any speaker you hook to them. These are just opinions from a long time McIntosh, Sonus faber and Klipsch owner. Since you don't have any audio dealers close by (welcome to the club), you'll have to rely on experienced users of the products to provide as much info as they can. I think you're starting on the right path with your power and control choices. You can't go wrong with McIntosh stuff. The speakers are where it can become a real crap shoot. Only you know what type of sound you're looking for. Try to find and call a few dealers who sell most of or all of the products on your list and talk to them about it. The really good dealers can provide tips and advice to ease your search for the right system. You don't necessarily have to buy from them, but their experiences and advice can be priceless in your situation.
 
FWIW, I have a C2200 and MC302 which I love. But if I have to replace the preamp it will be solid state and the 53 would be my first choice due to the flexibility of the EQ, the excellent phono stage and other factors. To my ears modern tube preamps sound modern which is fine if you like that and are not expecting a 'warm', vintage sound. The reason I went with the C2200 is at the time I wanted a tube preamp, but wanted one that was the "tubiest" (I think someone also pointed that out) of that McIntosh lineup. Although it's certainly a modern sounding unit. That said, it will be SS from now on if I change things up. Good luck whichever way you go. As always, just my 2c's, YMMV.
 
I audition both and bought the C53. sounded more authoritarian. 2700 sounded anemic to my old, tired ears.
 
Hi folks,

Eventually, I just got my new kit, C53 + MC462

My main source is vinyl:
Linn Sondek LP12 + MC Cartridge Dynavector Karat 17D2 MKII (0.26mV output voltage)
Speakers: Homemade (6 Ohms) hooked to the 4 Ohms connectors

I just started to test the amp, and here is the problem I am experiencing:
  • When I play vinyl, the high frequencies, especially the voices are distorted, they sound harsh on the high tones.
  • Also, I noticed that if I turn the volume up, I hear the hum from the TT.
Now, none of these issues were present with my previous Naim kit, and I have no reason to believe anything changed with my Sondek.

Connections are good, the only one I need to fix is the ground, because the spade is too small for the Mc, so I temporarily hooked one fork of the spade in the hole of the ground connector, and tightened the bolt.
This is just a temporary solution until I find a better one.
  • BTW, other than buying a new fork and solder it, is there an alternative way I can fix this?
I thought the ground connectors were of standard size, but obviously I was wrong.

Anyways, the load impedance recommended for my DV is >100 Ohm, so I changed the value to 100 Ohm in the C53.
I am aware I could try to load to 200 Ohm or higher or lower, but I did not so far.
For whatever reason I think the issue lays in the way the C53 matches with my cartridge, as I had zero issues with my previous amp.

I tried to play a CD, and it appears to sound as expected.

I am newbie to Mc amps, so I look forward to reading your thoughts.

Thank you!
Alex
 
My first month with the same setup was awful. Now I have to turn it down a bit, too much power. Give it some time to break in.
 
Metallo said:
Hi folks,

Eventually, I just got my new kit, C53 + MC462

My main source is vinyl:
Linn Sondek LP12 + MC Cartridge Dynavector Karat 17D2 MKII (0.26mV output voltage)
Speakers: Homemade (6 Ohms) hooked to the 4 Ohms connectors

I just started to test the amp, and here is the problem I am experiencing:
  • When I play vinyl, the high frequencies, especially the voices are distorted, they sound harsh on the high tones.
  • Also, I noticed that if I turn the volume up, I hear the hum from the TT.
Now, none of these issues were present with my previous Naim kit, and I have no reason to believe anything changed with my Sondek.

Connections are good, the only one I need to fix is the ground, because the spade is too small for the Mc, so I temporarily hooked one fork of the spade in the hole of the ground connector, and tightened the bolt.
This is just a temporary solution until I find a better one.
  • BTW, other than buying a new fork and solder it, is there an alternative way I can fix this?
I thought the ground connectors were of standard size, but obviously I was wrong.

Anyways, the load impedance recommended for my DV is >100 Ohm, so I changed the value to 100 Ohm in the C53.
I am aware I could try to load to 200 Ohm or higher or lower, but I did not so far.
For whatever reason I think the issue lays in the way the C53 matches with my cartridge, as I had zero issues with my previous amp.

I tried to play a CD, and it appears to sound as expected.

I am newbie to Mc amps, so I look forward to reading your thoughts.

Thank you!
Alex
Click to expand...

Immediately-apparent distortion sounds like a problem with the C53 phono section. You can try higher input loading but my experience with cartridge loading is that the differences are much more subtle than what you describe. Also, waiting for it to break in is not going to help this. It should sound fabulous right out of the box.

Hopefully you got this new from a dealer (or used but with warranty form a used dealer). If so, take it back and ask them to check it.
 
Are you hearing hum or hiss? If it turn up the volume on my C22 IV with either the MM or MC phono input switched to on, I get hiss, regardless of the turntable being turned on or off. I don’t get this with the other inputs, just the phono inputs. It seems normal to me. If you’re hearing a hum, then there might be an issue. Your C53 should be quieter than my C22 tube preamp so I’m with TSmith8605, take it back and have the dealer check it out. FYI, I’m also using an MC462 for my amp with Wireworld silver eclipse 8 balanced interconnects connecting the two.
 
Hi all,

First, thank you so much for your feedback.

While auditioning, I had to move things around, including my TT, which I shifted one feet on the left from its normal position (same surface of my piece of furniture).
However, that was enough to create a 2mm off-leveling, which was enough to generate the harsh sound I described above.
I re-leveled the TT, and the issue disappeared.

I did not try the hum, because I am still working to place the amps in the right spot they are supposed to be, but what you say regarding the hum, it does not sound right to me.
If you turn the volume up to max. you shouldn't hear any humming at all from your speakers.

Once I have placed the amp to the right distance, I will try again and see what happens.

Cheers,
Alex
 
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