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Can lower power amps safely drive 4 ohm speakers ?

Dom123

Well-Known Member
Hi Everyone,

In my quest for vintage audio perfection, I am interested in some vintage speakers that are rated at 4 ohms, for example KEF 104.1's.

Can anyone confirm if it will be OK to run these from my collection of small Sansui amps, or should I stick to 8 ohm speakers ? I have an AU555a, AU317, AU517, AU4900, AU5900 & AU7900 as well as a couple of 771 receivers.

Many thanks in advance for any advice
 
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If they are cap coupled you may find that the bass isn't as good as with 8 ohm speakers. Also beware of insensitive speakers, I almost killed a sansui 350a driving a pair of Orpheus 4 ohm speakers, 88db/watt.

At low levels and with sensitive speakers, no problems.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Yes I think they can all drive 4 ohm speakers. There is a note on the back of most of these amps saying if two pairs of speakers are connected they must be 8 Ohms or more each pair.

There was a typo in my message, I meant Kef 104.2's. 4 Ohms but Sensitivity of 92dB
 
You have to be a little careful with sensitivity ratings for 4 ohm speakers when compared to 8 ohm speakers. The same voltage will into them will actually result in much more power going into the 4 ohm speaker. I believe those KEFs are are actually around 89db/w when corrected for that.

I think it's academic however, unless you're listening to Drum&Bass at one end of spectrum or something with an orchestral slam at the other end, a low listening levels it will surely be fine.

you could always bump up the value of the output caps in the amps to help with the lower frequencies.
 
Just want to add this as an attempt to give you a hand to make a decision.

./ Speakers manufactures data is usually not very accurate
./ Impedance is frequency dependent, is not a fixed value.
./ Demanding loads, make amplifiers clip hard and PS sag specially small amps with a pair outputs transistors per channel and weak power supplies (for the application).
./ Clipping amps destroy tweeters (first)
./ Low SPL and not demanding content, you'll probably be fine.
./ High SPL and/or demanding content and your system probably will blow a tweeter or an output.
./ Some of those amps have a crude protection circuit or don't have one at all (only fuses).


IME, if you want demanding speakers, get good quality amplification and use the little amps as pre.
The speakers will sound way better, your vintage gear won't suffer and your overall experience will be more enjoyable.

Vintage units (specially Sansui) are awesome pieces of history but they have their limitations.
 
As others have already stated, you should have no problems driving the KEF's with the amps listed (as long as you keep the volume at a reasonable level). Unlike some speakers that have very wide impedance swings (depending on frequency), these were designed to be a very stable 4 ohm at all frequencies. However, many owners, including myself, agree that they don't really 'open up' until driven with high power/current amps.
 
Let me tell you about a real life story. I know it is true, because I and my best friend are involved.

Years ago, my best friend had a pair of Kef 104/2s. He had been using the big monster Tannoy, and he had just replaced them with the much smaller Kef 104/2. Everyone who heard them together were impressed with how they sounded. He was driving them with some kind of massive class A amps and he also had a Nakamichi Dragon. His system was one of the three systems I heard in the 80s that formed the minimum I was willing to accept for sound when I got back into audio in 2010.

Fast forward from the 80s to 2014 (wow, did that ever fly by!) and I have a pair of Kef 104/2s and Kef 105s. I decided I was going to keep the 105s and so I had the 104/2s for sale. My best friend comes over, and sees the Kefs and he asks me with a very excited voice, are those for sale? I smile at him and say yes, they are. He bought them on the spot and all we had to do was work out the details. He had lost his at the end of the 80s, early 90s, and always wanted to replace them.

I asked him what he was going to use to drive them, and he told me he had a pretty nice 30 watt Onkyo. I told him while the Onkyo may be capable of driving 4 ohm speakers, units this size were going to limit the sound quality. I heard them together whenever I went to his place and they really didn't sound like anything special paired up with the Onkyo. About 6 years later, he calls me asking for suggestions on a modern amp or separates that would do his Kef 104/2s justice. His Onkyo had died. I don't know much about what was available in modern gear at the time, but I suggested he investigate Bryston, NAD, and Emotiva. He ended up with the Emotiva BasX A2 amp and PT1 preamp. He told me how much better they sound now, and he couldn't believe he spent all those years with them without hearing them as they should be heard! True story!
 
Well thanks for all the replies. Some very interesting comments. My fun comes from buying cheapish vintage gear, mainly Sansui, usually not working, fixing it & enjoying.
Most of these old Sansui amps sound absoultely fantastic to me especially on my old Celef (8ohm) speakers. They are all recapped/restored following the great advice and comments available on AK.

I listen to music for about 1 hour each evening pretty loud, mainly Jazz. None of my amps ever get beyond mildly warm to say the least, even playing loud.

I love my Celefs, but need some decent back-ups just in case. Been through a whole string of old B&W speakers, as well as MA, Celestions etc. and everything dissapoints, either too bright, too dull, too shouty....... I even have a pair of modern Fyne Audio f302's, which I don't think sound that good to me, dull sounding (it could be my 60year old ears).

An opportunity has come up to buy a pair of KEF 104/2s in Mahogany for a very very reasonable price. The cabinets need some work, and the bass drivers some new foam donuts, otherwise the seller claims the tweeters are working fine. I'm thinking new ferrofluid, new donuts and I'm good. Can see about recapping later.

So I'll give them a go and see how I get on. The AU-517 is rated 65W (8 ohms) and my AU-7900 rated 80W (8 ohms) so should be plenty powerful enough. This is just for my own personnel listening, certainly never going to be partying...
 
I’ve got a pair of vintage 6ohm wharfedale Dovedale 3s that sound beautiful with soul and jazz and seem to particularly suit low powered vintage amplifiers. It has a beautiful midrange and quite good bass and doesn’t take much power to get to sing.

I enjoy the sound so much I have it set up in the living room next to main (modern) system and rotate in various vintage amps for background music for parties and bbqs, that sort of thing.

The speaker is from the same sort of vintage as the amps and complement each other beautifully. At the moment I am A/Bing a Sansui 101, Sansui 350a and Akai 1020 and would struggle to say which of the three I prefer. None of these amps produce much over 15-20 watts but these seem to 15-20 good watts and I’ve never been left wanting for more power.

I suppose they call it “system synergy”, it will work and sound very good but just noting that those KEFs need power to really sing and those amps sing particularly well with older and more sensitive speakers.

This is surely a fit and proper excuse to acquire another amplifier AS WELL AS, rather than instead of?:D
 
So I'll give them a go and see how I get on. The AU-517 is rated 65W (8 ohms) and my AU-7900 rated 80W (8 ohms) so should be plenty powerful enough. This is just for my own personnel listening, certainly never going to be partying...

i wouldn't call a 517 or 7900 low power amps. Mid power more like it. When reading this thread I thought you were talking 30watts or less. You should have no problems with either of those amps. Just keep check on the heat being produced.

What Celestions were you using? Some models would probably be a bit bright with jazz. I find the sealed Celestions (non ported) to be alot less bright.
 
i wouldn't call a 517 or 7900 low power amps. Mid power more like it. When reading this thread I thought you were talking 30watts or less. You should have no problems with either of those amps. Just keep check on the heat being produced.

What Celestions were you using? Some models would probably be a bit bright with jazz. I find the sealed Celestions (non ported) to be alot less bright.
To be fair, they probably weren't the best - some 80's Celestion Ditton 9 legends.
But I have been thinking about Celestion. There are a few pairs of 15XR for sale here. Not sure how good these are. Could be short in the bass dept.

I also have a pair of pristine KEF 104's in beautiful walnut venir cabinets. Sound good on some kinds of music, but the tweeters are a bit sharp. Looking out for some 104ab crossovers for these.

Just love the way vintage speakers are so cheap here in Belgium. They seem to be unsellable for the moment. Obviously shouldn't be naive about such old speakers & also check they're working properly, but there are some real bargains out there. Bit of a a minefield to know what's good or not for my ears.

The speaker is from the same sort of vintage as the amps and complement each other beautifully. At the moment I am A/Bing a Sansui 101, Sansui 350a and Akai 1020 and would struggle to say which of the three I prefer. None of these amps produce much over 15-20 watts but these seem to 15-20 good watts and I’ve never been left wanting for more power.
Yes I agree. The lower power amps are very satisfying. My 771's & AU-4900 are very nice sounding amp and in some respect more enjoyable than the bigger ones.
 
While I haven't heard the Ditton 15XRs, I have had at least three pairs of Ditton 15s. They are very capable bookshelf speakers. One of my favourites. They put out more bass than you would expect. They were also 4 ohm speakers.

I've experimented with a lot of different Sansui and 4 ohm speakers. It seems I quite like 4 ohm speakers. My reluctant conclusion was I was better off not matching 4 ohm speakers with Sansui, although I expect the BA-2000 or higher would have no issues. I have and love my AU-9900.
 
It seems that everyone is bound to have different results, being that we are all listening to various Sansui amps on various brand/model speakers,
as well as listening to all types of music at certain volume levels and so forth, be it phono (vinyl), cd, streaming, etc....

Thus, just considering one spec alone, 4 ohms, is not really alot to go on, especially when impedance is NOT a constant value, and in reality,
it varies higher & lower throughout the audible 20-20Khz frequency range, and of course, its the low dips below 4, that are the main concern,
for which its useful to see the impedance graphical chart for the speaker you happen to own, which will provide this information.

It would be convenient if we could apply the same principles of a home electrical system to an audio setup, being that the typical home runs on 15 ampere circuit breakers, and if that level of current is exceeded, it will cause a breaker to trip (open), and shut off as a protective device to avoid a fire hazard since excess current equates to excess heat, which equates to melted wires and so forth.

For example, you might find that when running a coffeemaker and the microwave simultaneously, it could approach the 15 amp limit, as an analogy to running two pairs of speakers simultaneously which causes higher current on the amplifier due to the impedance drop, and can cause an amp's protection device to activate in order to prevent internal damage such as blown power out transistors, etc..

It depends on the devices, just like it depends on the speakers being used, for some things you can connect multiple devices such as numerous lightbulbs into a power strip and be ok, whereas only two 1800 Watt hairdryers should be enough to trip a breaker.

In the case of the home electrical system, the current can be measured with a Clamp on. You would just need to strip the insulation off of the extension cord in order to isolate the hot and neutral wires so that the clamp-on can read one of them to get the ampere measurement. (obviously you dont want to damage the actual cord of the appliance, so you could just plug into another ext cord and use the ext cord to strip the insulation).

Having described all of this, I was wondering if something similar can be done with an amp and speakers. Can we do a test and hook up a pair of 8 ohm speakers, and then a pair of 4 ohms, and plug the amp's cord into an ext cord, and strip the insulation and take a measurement with the clamp-on to compare how much the current increased, to get an idea of how close the amp is to having its protection circuit triggered?

As I try to give it more thought, it might be more complicated with audio- unlike just a lightbulb which has a filament that behaves as a resistor regardless of ac or DC, , speaker crossover circuits have inductors and caps, which have impedance and behave much differently.

For example, in trying to better grasp the concept of Impedance vs resistance, and ac vs DC, its very easy to see that if we have two 8 ohm resistors in series, they add up to 16 ohms, whereas if we have an 8 ohm resistor and an 8 ohm inductor instead, they dont add up to 16 ohms, its more like 8 + j8, which only folks who have taken circuit theory classes and are familiar with polar and rectangular coordinates from mathematics would understand.
Thus, why impedance over the 20-20K range and how a vintage Sansui amp would respond seems hard to analyze/predict.

Well, if you look at each Sansui amp's operating manual, or the back of the speaker terminals, it will usually state the impedance range, and a good number of them would seem to accomodate 4 ohms, otherwise I dont see why they would have a 2nd set of terminals instead of just one, as if everyone is expected to have 16 ohm speakers so that if both A & B are used simultaneously, then it equates to an 8 ohm load.

But in the real world, I would just say- go by the overall reputation of your speakers which is easy enough to find out online and from the experiences of others. Obviously, if the speaker is an Infinity Kappa 9 "amp killer", then common sense should indicate that a real robust amp is necessary, but if the speakers dont have any abrupt dips and are efficient, etc, should be ok, if any doubts, just start gradually, play the amp at lower volume for a while and see how it goes, then turn it up a bit and so forth and monitor it, and see if it continues to be ok, if so, should be good.
 
Hi Everyone,

In my quest for vintage audio perfection, I am interested in some vintage speakers that are rated at 4 ohms, for example KEF 104.1's.

Can anyone confirm if it will be OK to run these from my collection of small Sansui amps, or should I stick to 8 ohm speakers ? I have an AU555a, AU317, AU517, AU4900, AU5900 & AU7900 as well as a couple of 771 receivers.

Many thanks in advance for any advice
I've read the various replies and found this very intriguing. My two cents: it depends. It's not a cop-out. It really depends on the particular speaker as everyone has already stated. But additionally, it depends on how loud you want to go. If you connect low-impedance speakers but keep the amp in a "resonable" operating range, everything should be fine, assumin it is rated to drive into four ohms, which many are. Also, if your amp has good protection circuitty that keeps it from self-destructing, then if you get carried away with the volume knob, the amp will go into protect mode and should save itself (and your speakers) from a quick death.

If, however, you are in a larger room and/or you like to run things loud, get a higher powered amp that can handle the load. If you drive a small amp into clipping in an effort to achieve high sound levels, it will be hard on the speakers as well as the amp.
 
As with most low powered vintage receiver's, My 10 wpc Realistic STA 7 has no problem driving a 4 ohm nominal load, like my 2 pair of matching Minimus 7 speakers (8ohm) all day at reasonably high SPL's with the EQ on. The EQ boosts bass by 6+ db's. And yes, the speakers are connected in parallel.

The STA 7 a real gem of a receiver. The FM tuner section sounds wonderful and even the Phono preamp does an admirable job. Both are dead quite.

On the other hand, my 80 wpc AVR is rated for 8 ohm speakers. It must be switched to low power mode for 4 ohm speakers.
 
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@Brite_Star
This is how it works; Ohm's law states that for a given voltage (constant from source) current is inversely proportional to impedance: V = voltage, I = current and R = impedance

V = I/R
- If the load resistance is higher, less current will be available to power the load.

EXAMPLE #1
V = I /R (8 Ohms)
- if the impedance is increased, the current will decrease proprtionally because the voltage is constant. This results is less current available for the load.

EXAMPLE #2
V = I / R (4 Ohms)
- when the impedance is decreased, the current "dropped" must increase; this results in more current dropped on the load.

APPLICATION
Using the same power amplifier CAPABLE of supplying either a 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm load, the amplifier will deliver twice as much current to a 4 Ohm load, than it will to an 8 Ohm load.

It is because of this Ohm's law, that we must excercise caution when powering speakers with amplifiers. Some ampliers are not stable supplying a 4 Ohm load, while still others are designed to power 2 Ohms, 1 Ohm or even 0.5 Ohms. In contrast some speaker configurations result in 4, 6 and 8 Ohm loads (and any value inbetween)
 
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