Aillo
New Member
Ok. That settles it. Thx again.
Can wrong cable gauge damage an amp?
- Thread starter Aillo
- Start date
Ok. That settles it. Thx again.
the skipper
Professional Curmudgeon
Well then, who was it for. FWIW, I spoon fed you the most important piece of information that could prevent you from damaging your amp that this whole thread produced.
You can find whatever you need to know here: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
You're welcome.
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Aillo
New Member
To the people that I quoted comments in my previous post. They were saying "you shouldn't do X" or "what you don't want is Y" without saying if it might hurt or not.True that and I am greatful and already shared that info with other friends who are possibly making same mistakes regarding use of different type of speakers. Now we all know that cables don't hurt and speakers shouldn't be mixed without the right calculations.
BYE
Some people think fatter cables will mean better performance and unless the cable runs are very long, it makes ZERO difference in most systems. Your system will work fine with good quality 16 awg wire, period. Since the run is a bit on the long side, 14awg would work to but probably not make any difference. Neither one will hurt your 1070 in any way.
Aillo
New Member
Ok. Thx for the clarification.
The thinner the cable, the higher the resistance...which I think you now understand, if you did not before. Also, the longer the cable, the higher the resistance.
The higher the resistance, the lower the output of the amplifier. Effectively, the power capability of your amplifier is reduced as resistance goes up. Practically, this means that you will have to turn it up a bit more than you would need to with thicker or shorter cable to get the same loudness. This effect will not be dramatic...maybe 10% or so in you planned arrangement. This will not damage the amplifier....it will only reduce its output capability.
As for running both pairs of speakers simultaneously...don't do it. If resistance is reduced below its design parameters, the amp will generate more current (or at least, it tries to) than it was designed to provide. In turn, this can damage the power supply components and/or the output transistors.
The suggestions above for using a speaker selector box with impedance protection are right on target if you ever do want to run both pairs simultaneously. The protection circuitry assure that impedance (resistance) will not drop below a specified level (usually 4-6 ohms), but it also may have some small effect on sound quality.
This of course assumes that your amplifier (receiver) is designed to handle the load presented by the selector box. Just about all receivers can handle 8 ohms, and many - but not all - can handle a 4 ohm load.
The higher the resistance, the lower the output of the amplifier. Effectively, the power capability of your amplifier is reduced as resistance goes up. Practically, this means that you will have to turn it up a bit more than you would need to with thicker or shorter cable to get the same loudness. This effect will not be dramatic...maybe 10% or so in you planned arrangement. This will not damage the amplifier....it will only reduce its output capability.
As for running both pairs of speakers simultaneously...don't do it. If resistance is reduced below its design parameters, the amp will generate more current (or at least, it tries to) than it was designed to provide. In turn, this can damage the power supply components and/or the output transistors.
The suggestions above for using a speaker selector box with impedance protection are right on target if you ever do want to run both pairs simultaneously. The protection circuitry assure that impedance (resistance) will not drop below a specified level (usually 4-6 ohms), but it also may have some small effect on sound quality.
This of course assumes that your amplifier (receiver) is designed to handle the load presented by the selector box. Just about all receivers can handle 8 ohms, and many - but not all - can handle a 4 ohm load.
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Aillo
New Member
Thx for the detailed info. That sums up very well.
The Operation Manual of Marantz 1070 says it can handle a pair of 4 ohm speakers, not two pairs but I think this is not an issue with a selector box as it regulates the whole thing. It might be a good solution for a more complex setup in futur indeed. Do you have any near budget recommendations? Considering, I don't live in US but I go to France each year. I may consider buying one there.
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musichal
poet emeritus
Since you asked about amp damage, I first mentioned the selector because that appeared the more likely way for you to stress and possibly damage your amp - by running both pair at the same time, which you may occasionally want to do. Most of the switchers which also include volume attenuators have the impedance compensation included, and that is the key feature whatever speaker switch you choose needs to have. Look for or ask for that. You also might find that in actual use, separate volume controls (actually attenuators) may turn out quite handy. I did not address your wire question as that had already been answered by the Skipper.
An 8 ohm and 4 ohm speaker in parallel yields a 2.6667 ohm impedance. Tough for many amps. As for the suggestion above that the thinner wire may provide some protection - I wouldn't rely on that with such a low impedance load.
An 8 ohm and 4 ohm speaker in parallel yields a 2.6667 ohm impedance. Tough for many amps. As for the suggestion above that the thinner wire may provide some protection - I wouldn't rely on that with such a low impedance load.
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One of my first systems was powered by a 35 wpc Sony receiver connected with ~24 feet of 20 gauge wire to a pair of 8 ohm speakers. When the volume was turned up to what I considered a very moderate level there was distortion. It was particularly noticeable on Soprano vocals on Purcell's Theater Music. I replaced the 20 gauge wire with 16 gauge and there was no longer any distortion.
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I would guess that your amp ran out of power, and was clipping the signal. However, the math says that the resistance of a 24 foot run of 20 gauge wire = .25 ohms, while the same length of 14 gauge = .06 ohms; while significant, the difference would not seem to explain such a dramatic change in output.
Classical music often has a very broad dynamic range, and therefore needs a lot of power to avoid clipping of the transient peaks.Sounds like the loss of power from the combination of a long cable run and thin wires put your amp over the edge of audible clipping...at least with that particular pair of speakers, pushed to that volume.
In your case, better wiring solved the problem. Alternatively, a somewhat more powerful amp or more sensitive speakers would have also done the trick.
Classical music often has a very broad dynamic range, and therefore needs a lot of power to avoid clipping of the transient peaks.Sounds like the loss of power from the combination of a long cable run and thin wires put your amp over the edge of audible clipping...at least with that particular pair of speakers, pushed to that volume.
In your case, better wiring solved the problem. Alternatively, a somewhat more powerful amp or more sensitive speakers would have also done the trick.
Aillo
New Member
I keep your comment in mind Mark B, I ordered my 18 awg cables. Will share the results.
Thx again also for your comment spark1 but I will have to point out an anachronism about what you call dynamics in classical music. That's a very common misconception. The problem is dynamics system in written western art music was established through out 18th century and has been normalised mostly in 19th century. If you listen to an authentic interpretation of Purcell's music, one of the most characteristic difference is that dynamically, it should sound quite plain compared to say Mozart or even more to guys like Beethoven, Schubert or Schumann. The reason is that -- and for that you might check the scores yourself -- you would instantly see there are no written dynamics such as crescendos or decrescendos. Because in the baroque era, especially at the 2nd half of 17th in Britain, that stuff didn't exist yet or it was truely the begining. I just wanted to share that info. So, there is a very small chance it is BCS of the musical content.
Thx again also for your comment spark1 but I will have to point out an anachronism about what you call dynamics in classical music. That's a very common misconception. The problem is dynamics system in written western art music was established through out 18th century and has been normalised mostly in 19th century. If you listen to an authentic interpretation of Purcell's music, one of the most characteristic difference is that dynamically, it should sound quite plain compared to say Mozart or even more to guys like Beethoven, Schubert or Schumann. The reason is that -- and for that you might check the scores yourself -- you would instantly see there are no written dynamics such as crescendos or decrescendos. Because in the baroque era, especially at the 2nd half of 17th in Britain, that stuff didn't exist yet or it was truely the begining. I just wanted to share that info. So, there is a very small chance it is BCS of the musical content.
It may well be that Purcell's music has little in the way of dynamics; I am not interested in it enough to look at his scores. This does not change the fact that classical music in general has the widest variance between softest and loudest elements (dynamic range) and also the largest crest factors (the difference between average and peak levels).
As for Mark B's experience, it is hard to know what type of distortion he was hearing, and its cause. As I noted, the difference in resistance would not seem to be large enough to make a significant difference in audible clipping distortion.
As for Mark B's experience, it is hard to know what type of distortion he was hearing, and its cause. As I noted, the difference in resistance would not seem to be large enough to make a significant difference in audible clipping distortion.
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triode17
Super Member
As a cheap fix, you could add 4 ohms in series with each Alesis speaker to make their load 8 Ohms a piece. But you will lose half the volume in those speakers. I did this in my last AV receiver hookup using a 4 Ohm JBL center channel speaker. Worked well for many years.
Good question. I first noticed the distortion on soprano vocal fortissimo's, and the two way speakers I was using sounded like the tweeter/midrange drivers were buzzing/breaking up. I initially thought that the drivers were damaged but that the damage was only audible on certain loud passages at certain frequencies. I saw no visual evidence of damage to the drivers, so I just kept the volume down to a level that did not trigger the distortion.
The receiver was on loan from a friend while I saved to buy a new amp & preamp. When I replaced the receiver with the new amp (a Yamaha M-80) & preamp (Yamaha C-80) and everything else in the system unchanged, I experimented with the volume while playing Purcell's Theater Music, and there was no distortion from the speakers at or above the volume that the distortion had occurred before. I didn't know why there was no longer any distortion, but I made me curious, so I swapped out the Yamaha pre & power amp for the Sony receiver and the distortion on soprano vocal fortissimo's occurred at the volumes I had noticed it before.
I don't recollect who suggested trying larger wire (this occurred in 1986) but when I hooked up the speakers to the receiver with 16 gauge wire there was no distortion at or above the volume when it had occurred before. In the following years there was never any distortion from those speakers connected to the Yamaha pre & power amp with 16 gauge wire.
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