cartridge alignment thoughts

[doublenit]

hey gang! i just got a new Ortofon 2M Red cartridge for my Pro-Ject Debut III. I didn't realize what a headache cartridge alignment could be. It was my first time so I didn't even put any thought into it until the cartridge arrived.

Anyway, I used the little alignment piece of cardboard that comes with the Debut and then downloaded some other tools from vinylengine. I took a couple of snaps of the cart on the various protractors...what do you think?


Am I close enough?

Here is the order:
1. Lofgren A arc: outer
2. Lofgren A arc: inner
3. vinylengine Baerwald: outer
4. vinylengine Baerwald: inner
5. Pro-Ject 2 point: outer
6. Pro-Ject 2 point: inner

http://imgur.com/a/l1K1T#dAIG7

 

[melofelo]

it looks pretty well aligned to me..:thmbsp: which geometry will you settle on? the cantilever looks pretty happy at both inner and outer null points in pics 3 & 4..

 

[scubaguy10]

Looks pretty well squared up to me. I'd say run it for a while and see what you think

 

[moon unit]

I see you're using the Conrad Hoffman arc protractor. If it's lined up and the stylus follows the arc perfectly (use a magnifying glass) then that's as good as you're going to get it!

You know Lofgren A and Baerwald are the same, right?

 

[Miguel760]

Looks good to me!

ps. clear your mind and relax when messing with stylus alignment! I think I might have bent the cantilever because my mind was on the argument I got into with my sister. Oh well.

 

[catman]

G'day all, to my eyes it looks 'slightly' out, but it may be an optical illusion perhaps because the stylus tip may not be exactly centred on the null point(s).

Ideally the cartridge should be centred and parallel at both null points. Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

G'day all, to my eyes it looks 'slightly' out, but it may be an optical illusion perhaps because the stylus tip may not be exactly centred on the null point(s).

Ideally the cartridge should be centred and parallel at both null points. Regards, Felix aka catman.

I think you're right. Do you suppose he needs to pull the cartridge forward a bit?

 

[doublenit]

this is interesting. so you guys think pulling the cartridge forward would be a good move? Also, I had the anti-skate on while taking the photos...should I have done that?

(First-timer so sorry if those are dumb questions!)

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

this is interesting. so you guys think pulling the cartridge forward would be a good move? Also, I had the anti-skate on while taking the photos...should I have done that?

(First-timer so sorry if those are dumb questions!)

Not sure yet. How much distance is there from the front edge of the tonearm to the front edge of the cartridge? It looks like it's pushed back under there a few millimeters? Could you measure that?

 

[doublenit]

looks to be 2-2.5mm difference.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

looks to be 2-2.5mm difference.

I took some measurements on my Debut III and I don't think that distance is a problem. I just couldn't tell from your photos. One thing you could do is tape something straight, like a 0.5mm pencil lead, across the face of the cartridge. It gives you a larger frame of reference when you're looking at the protractor. Maybe as catman said, it's an illusion in the photos, but I wonder about how in the 6th photo the triangles made by partially exposed gridlines in the back are such different sizes from one side to the other.

 

[catman]

G'day all, in the end, just have a listen and see if any IGD can be discerned. I also have an Ortofon 2 M Red and I find it slightly more suseptible to IGD than my other cartridges.

Your ears will tell you if something is not quite right! Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[moon unit]

this is interesting. so you guys think pulling the cartridge forward would be a good move? Also, I had the anti-skate on while taking the photos...should I have done that?

(First-timer so sorry if those are dumb questions!)

If the tip of the stylus is positioned exactly on the arc at the outside of the record and it ends up ahead of the arc (even by 1/2mm) past the inner null point, then pull it back. If it ends up behind the arc past the inner null point, then pull it forward. If it follows the arc perfectly don't touch it. That's the whole point of using an arc protractor.

The cantilever does look slightly out of line in the picture (using the arc protractor) but your eyes (and a magnifier) are a lot more accurate than taking a picture and asking. If the cantilever lines up perfectly (looking exactly straight down the null point grid, not even slightly left or right of the grid) then it is perfect. If you follow the arc perfectly, perfect alignment at the outer null point will automatically give you perfect alignment at the inner null point. Never hurts to double check though.

 

[melofelo]

going by pictures 3 and 4... if you settle on baerwald and the cartridge cantilever aligns well at both null points without having to adjust it in between...then i'd leave it there for a while and listen...
constant fiddling can sometimes lead to very bad cursing when you bend the cantilever by mistake..

either way...just going through this alignment process, whatever system you choose, has already put you close to a 'good' alignment... i'd focus now on dialing in tracking force and anti skate as the stylus gets a bit of break-in exercise...and just enjoy some vinyl...
if its brand new stylus...play some well used records for the first 10 hours or so..then move on to your better condition records... a stylus tip can benefit from a bit of groove polishing in the first few hours of use...and the stylus cantilever takes a few hours to settle under load..

 

[Pio1980]

Keep in mind that the overhang is a compromised approximation in all cases, there is no 'perfect' alignment for a pivoted arm. The VTA/SRA however is critical to the overall sound over the entire disc and will determine detailing, edginess, and musicality. Once properly set for average modern LPs, it can be left alone for the life of the stylus in that arm on that table at that tracking force.

 

[markd51]

Agreed, if the Stylus sits on one side of the arc at the beginning, and then slightly at the other side of arc at the end of the arc, then error, even very slight, is still there in regards to overhang.

As for Zenith Angle, yes, getting a perfect picture with a camera might be almost next to impossible. And as well, depending on the degree of precision of the Protractor, and the degree of parallax error the user might encounter, can exasperate-complicate the precision of attaining correct Zenith Angle of the Cantilever.

Having used a number of Sight Line tractors, and even a properly made printout Arc Tractor (Baerwald) I thought I was aligned well, until I used a tool such as the MintLP Best Protractor.

Due to the coarseness of the Arc line, the coarseness of the Null Grids, and ineffective means of attaining correct Zenith Angle, I noted I was off. Not by a whole lot, but that extra bit of precision the Mint Protractor provided did indeed give a notable improvement of sound-performance. The Null Grids on the MintLP are virtually microscopic in nature, and need the aid of a magnifier, or loupe (at least for my eyes it did)

With an arc style Protractor, it will be absolutely paramount, that the Platter is somehow locked-immobilized, so it cannot move-rotate.

And the other important aspect of an Arc Style Protractor, will be the confirmation, that the actual Spinde-Pivot distance precisely coincides with the spec on the Tractor.

Perhaps not as critical with certain Cartridges, and Stylus Profiles, but I found the MintLP Tractor was a very important tool to aiding the alignment of my ZYX Airy 3X Cartridge, with its ultra slender profile Microline Styli.

The better that one can attain correct Zenith Angle, is very critical to insure the Stylus is properly aligned to the groove wall at the null points.

That if there is error for this spec, that only by a stroke of luck will the Styli be properly aligned at some other point(s) on the record. Mark

 

[doublenit]

All the help is greatly appreciated! I think what I'll do when I get home is get the magnifying glass out. Recheck against the Baerwald arc again, making sure that I am on the arc the entire way and squared up at the null points.

As you all probably know the counterweight on this particular table is only has three settings. See below:

so 2 final questions and I'll let you guys get back to your lives...

1. Should I do this with the counterweight on or off?
2. Should I even up the front of the cartridge with the front of the tonearm?

Once again, thanks everyone! This has been a great help!

 

[gusten]

Keep in mind that the overhang is a compromised approximation in all cases, there is no 'perfect' alignment for a pivoted arm. The VTA/SRA however is critical to the overall sound over the entire disc and will determine detailing, edginess, and musicality. Once properly set for average modern LPs, it can be left alone for the life of the stylus in that arm on that table at that tracking force.

I agree, alignment only keep tracking distortion at minimum at two null points.
The opinion where these should be placed have no consensus and will not alter much within reason.
gusten

 

[markd51]

All the help is greatly appreciated! I think what I'll do when I get home is get the magnifying glass out. Recheck against the Baerwald arc again, making sure that I am on the arc the entire way and squared up at the null points.

As you all probably know the counterweight on this particular table is only has three settings. See below:

so 2 final questions and I'll let you guys get back to your lives...

1. Should I do this with the counterweight on or off?
2. Should I even up the front of the cartridge with the front of the tonearm?

Once again, thanks everyone! This has been a great help!

I take it you mean the Tonearm has only 3 "anti-skate" settings, via a weight, and string? Probably best to use some anti-skate, so that the Cantilever is not being pulled out of line in relation to the cartridge body.

You'll definitely want to be in a very close ballpark for vertical tracking force settings, as this can effect the measurement of overhang ever so slightly.

And as well, by being at an overly high setting of VTF can actually harm the cartridge's Cantilever. If you are going to use 2.0g of tracking force, then insure that VTF is used when doing your alignment.

Not sure what you mean by your last comment about evening up the front of the cartridge to the front of the tonearm?

Alignment of the cartridge body to the headshell, while aesthetically pleasing to the eye, is of course not the correct way to align any cartridge.

Hope this helps, and I have not been further confusing. Mark