Cartridge Choices for Audio Technica ATP-12T

[AvFan]

I'm looking for some feedback on cartridge choices for my Audio Technica ATP-12T tonearm that is mated with my Technics SP-25. I'm currently using a Denon DL-103 and I really like its bass and mid-range but it does not seem to reveal the highs like my cartridges with elliptical styli do. This information and feedback may be helpful to others searching for a cartridge for other "heavy" arms such as the Jelco 750.

This thread from Vinyl Engine was particularly helpful regarding the impacts of the shape of the stylus' on sound. It explained what stylus types I should consider on my search to resolve detail better.http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22894&sid=4d6f724d7f11d172c4addd73e673adae

I confined my search to new cartridges with a compliance and weight that yielded a resonance of either 9 or 10 Hz according to the Vinyl Engine resonance calculator. The ATP-12T arm was assumed to have an effective mass of 21g. Finally, the cost had to be no more than about $500 and have an advance stylus shape (e.g. line contact, shibata, fine line, Fritz Geiger, microline, SAS).

The cartridges that fit that criteria turned out to be:

Denon DL-103 (MC) retipped by Soundsmith with a CL/Ruby stylus/cantilever
Ortofon MC3 Turbo (HOMC Fine Line)
Ortofon X5-MC (HOMC Fritz Geiger 70)
Audio Technica OC9 MKII (MC microline)
Audio Technica 150MLX (MM microline)
Audio Technica 440La (MM microline)

If i'm leaning at all it would be towards the Soundsmith retipped DL-103 in hopes of preserving what I like about the original DL-103 but I'm very interested in what folks think about the above list of cartridges in relatively heavy arms. Thanks in advance for the feedback!

 

[Vorum]

Those A-T MMs like a mass of ~9-12 grams and don't respond very well to added weight, imo. Putting my AT-150MLX in a heavier headshell totally sucked the life out of it. I haven't heard the OC9, but going by the numbers the AT33PTG or AT33EV would be a better match.

I can't comment on the SS re-tipped 103, but I had them do a DL-160 and it retained most of its base tonal characteristics. Very curious how the 103 would respond, some report that it changes the character of the cartridge too much, but I wonder how much.

 

[majick47]

As always I stand to be corrected, the DL-103 was geared towards broadcast use/heavy tonearms and when introduced in the 1960s high frequncy response wasn't the goal. How would the Denon DL-103S fit in for resonance? My guess it might be better with a midrange medium mass arm, by broadcast standards from the past the ATP12T doesn't appear to be all that heavy compared to other tonearms used for broadcast.

 

[dnewma04]

I think it's got an effective mass of ~18-20g?

 

[jimreeves]

The cartridges that fit that criteria turned out to be:

Denon DL-103 (MC) retipped by Soundsmith with a CL/Ruby stylus/cantilever
?Ortofon MC3 Turbo (HOMC Fine Line)
?Ortofon X5-MC (HOMC Fritz Geiger 70)
*Audio Technica OC9 MKII (MC microline)
*Audio Technica 150MLX (MM microline)
*Audio Technica 440La (MM microline)

If i'm leaning at all it would be towards the Soundsmith retipped DL-103 in hopes of preserving what I like about the original DL-103 but I'm very interested in what folks think about the above list of cartridges in relatively heavy arms. Thanks in advance for the feedback!

* If you go back to VE's cart database you'll notice that AT carts are measured at 100Hz, not 10Hz like many other brands. The concensus I've read here is that a 100Hz measurement multiplies the compliance by ~1.7, i.e. a compliance of 10 at 100Hz would be nearer 17 at 10Hz.

 

[AvFan]

Thanks for the input guys!

If you go back to VE's cart database you'll notice that AT carts are measured at 100Hz, not 10Hz like many other brands. The concensus I've read here is that a 100Hz measurement multiplies the compliance by ~1.7, i.e. a compliance of 10 at 100Hz would be nearer 17 at 10Hz.

I'm having some problems finding 10 vs 100Hz for measuring compliance of AT cartridges. I know Denon's carts are measured at 100Hz but for the Soundsmith retipped DL-103 I used their stated compliance of 8. I'm curious about the 1.7 multiplier though; I'd read (but can't quote) it was appropriate to add 3 or 4 to the stated 100Hz compliance to get to the compliance at 10Hz. A 1.7 factor would be significant.

How would the Denon DL-103S fit in for resonance? My guess it might be better with a midrange medium mass arm, by broadcast standards from the past the ATP12T doesn't appear to be all that heavy compared to other tonearms used for broadcast.

I looked at the 103s as there was one on the auction site this weekend. It has an elliptical stylus and a compliance of 8cu so it would work resonance wise even adding 3 or 5 to the 8cu. I shied away from it since it is not new and it has an elliptical stylus but I bet it is a terrific cartridge.

Very curious how the 103 would respond, some report that it changes the character of the cartridge too much, but I wonder how much.

Me too! I've read only one or two posts about Soundsmith's retip of the DL-103. They were positive but it would be nice to have a few more data points.

Putting my AT-150MLX in a heavier headshell totally sucked the life out of it.

Good to know the 150MLX didn't do so well with a heavy headshell. How heavy was your headshell?

 

[jimreeves]

Dynamic compliance will vary with frequency but I'm sure the 1.7 multiplier is just a rule-of-thumb figure. Short of using a test record or recording needle drops and using software to measure resonance it's impossible to be accurate. Of course you'd need the cartridge in hand to do that anyway.

Howard suggests using recommended VTF as a rule of thumb to get in the ballpark.

I would trust Soundsmith for a recommendation with a retipped 103. Are you thinking of the aluminum/elliptical refurb or the ruby/microline?

 

[Pio1980]

The ruby rod is quite fragile, I'd reconsider the alu/ellliptical for this set-up.

 

[Muddywaters]

I have tested my 103's on my KAB damper 1200's arm with the HiFi News test record. I made a modified end stub weight (to add mass) since my 103's are both re-bodied, (one in aluminum and one in a SoundSmith wood body using Sumiko/Lp Gear 12 gm shells) I needed it to balance the arms. The lateral numbers on the Technics came in at about 8 Hz.

I just tested the aluminum body on the Jelco 750D 12" arm and it came in at about 8.5-9.0 Hz.

The al body has the SS ruby/lc the woodie has a stock Denon cantilever/stylus. While I believe there is merit to higher mass arms with the 103 there are ways to bring the eff mass in line with a decent arm and get excellent results. Peter has another 103 that should be finished soon (ruby/lc) that I will keep in the stock body for some time to compare to the other ones.

If you like the Denon sound I would give the AT arm a shot with one. As far as the retip I think since I will have 4 ruby/lc carts (Dyna 20X and a recent Dyna Karat 17D MKII) shows I'm biased.

 

[AvFan]

I'd forgotten about using tracking force as well so the ATs probably do have a higher compliance than stated. The AT carts have lower tracking forces (up to 1.75g) than the Ortofons whose recommended tracking force is 2g. Of course the DL-103 has a range of 2.3g to 2.7g. I noticed the Soundsmith site says TF can be reduced to 1.3g to 1.7g with the ruby cantilever but the compliance is 8cu. :scratch2:

I was most interested in a contact line (or other advanced shape) stylus so the ruby cantilever comes with it. Soundsmith's site gives the impression the aluminum/elliptical combo are a package deal so I don't know if they could put a contact line on the aluminum cantilever. It makes sense a crystal would be more fragile than aluminum but I wonder if it makes a difference under normal use.

So maybe I'm down to an Otofon or a retipped DL-103? Or I have to widen my search and use carts with a resonance down to 8Hz too.

 

[Muddywaters]

I'd forgotten about using tracking force as well so the ATs probably do have a higher compliance than stated. The AT carts have lower tracking forces (up to 1.75g) than the Ortofons whose recommended tracking force is 2g. Of course the DL-103 has a range of 2.3g to 2.7g. I noticed the Soundsmith site says TF can be reduced to 1.3g to 1.7g with the ruby cantilever but the compliance is 8cu. :scratch2:

I was most interested in a contact line (or other advanced shape) stylus so the ruby cantilever comes with it. Soundsmith's site gives the impression the aluminum/elliptical combo are a package deal so I don't know if they could put a contact line on the aluminum cantilever. It makes sense a crystal would be more fragile than aluminum but I wonder if it makes a difference under normal use.

So maybe I'm down to an Otofon or a retipped DL-103? Or I have to widen my search and use carts with a resonance down to 8Hz too.

Double check those vtf numbers from SS on the ruby/lc. I know he reworks (re-engineers) some 103's changing their compliance but not with a standard re-tip. I'd stick with the ruby personally. I don't think he will do a lc/aluminum. You aren't using this thing in a broadcast situation. I run mine usually around 2.6 gm. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts either way you go.

 

[AvFan]

Are you running all your soundsmith cartridges on a KAB modded SL-1200? Stock arm? Did you notice a major change in the character of the DL-103 after it was retipped with the CL/ruby?

 

[Muddywaters]

Are you running all your soundsmith cartridges on a KAB modded SL-1200? Stock arm? Did you notice a major change in the character of the DL-103 after it was retipped with the CL/ruby?

Both of my 1200's have modded tonearm wiring and the damper and the ps upgrade. I'm selling one in BT. So if you mean original technics arm correct but not stock. My point regarding the arm was even though in stock form it's effective mass is 12 g utilizing heavier headshells, body and additional weight on the end stub they worked quite nicely. I believe I've seen folks here quite happy with them on a stock Technics arm as well. I did try the wood body on one of my VPI JMW arms, the 10.0 and didn't feel it did it justice but the JMW is even lighter mass than the 1200 arm and I think being a light unipivot vs the captured bearing Technics also influences it.

Currently I have the alumnum body ruby/lc running on a Jelco 750D and a temporary plinthed Technics SP25. The wood body 103 with stock Denon cantilever is still on a heavy Sumiko headshell and aligned for the Technics 1200 tables.

As far the $250 question... define major From the tone of your initial post I believe you would be very happy with the ruby/lc approach. I feel it adds more top end definition and "air" without sacrificing the lush midrange the 103 has. I think you will find the bass will be tighter as well. Unfortunately the only way to know for sure is for your ears to decide. I compared the aluminum to a totally stock 103 prior to re-tip and after so there is some influence there with the higher mass body and potting.

 

[AvFan]

As far the $250 question... define major From the tone of your initial post I believe you would be very happy with the ruby/lc approach. I feel it adds more top end definition and "air" without sacrificing the lush midrange the 103 has. I think you will find the bass will be tighter as well. Unfortunately the only way to know for sure is for your ears to decide.

Thanks for your insights! If I go the retipped DL-103 route I'd prefer to use a cart with a bent or broken cantilever versus using my perfectly fine 103. If anyone has a 103 in less than pristine condition I'd appreciate a PM to discuss a purchase.

So, my original list had a couple of Ortofons on it. Anybody care to share their experiences with the X5-MC or MC-3 Turbo?

 

[li303ve]

You might consider looking at changing loading/phono stage for your 103 before getting a new cart. When I first got my DL-103, I was using a fairly cheap preamp that had a non-adjustable 100 Ohm loading for the MC section. I was pretty disappointed in the lack of treble detail I was hearing, and was considering selling the cartridge. Later, I got an Audio Technica AT-630 step-up transformer, which completely changed my perspective on the DL-103. Much more detailed and neutral sounding. If you're using an active preamp, maybe try loading closer to 1K if you aren't already. You also might consider investing in an appropriate step-up transformer if you aren't currently using one.

For perspective, I generally prefer cartridges on the bright side, so attenuated treble is often a deal breaker for me.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I track a Stanton 681 EEE in my ATP 16-T, use the A conical stylus for 45 singles and the Stereohedron II. Adjust the tracking weight as needed and tracks most anything fine.

 

[Muddywaters]

Thanks for your insights! If I go the retipped DL-103 route I'd prefer to use a cart with a bent or broken cantilever versus using my perfectly fine 103. If anyone has a 103 in less than pristine condition I'd appreciate a PM to discuss a purchase.

So, my original list had a couple of Ortofons on it. Anybody care to share their experiences with the X5-MC or MC-3 Turbo?

Fully understand not retipping a perfectly good one. My first was an ebay purchase with a cracked body and unknow hours. The second one which isn't back yet from SS was a busted cant off BT.

You might consider looking at changing loading/phono stage for your 103 before getting a new cart. When I first got my DL-103, I was using a fairly cheap preamp that had a non-adjustable 100 Ohm loading for the MC section. I was pretty disappointed in the lack of treble detail I was hearing, and was considering selling the cartridge. Later, I got an Audio Technica AT-630 step-up transformer, which completely changed my perspective on the DL-103. Much more detailed and neutral sounding. If you're using an active preamp, maybe try loading closer to 1K if you aren't already. You also might consider investing in an appropriate step-up transformer if you aren't currently using one.

For perspective, I generally prefer cartridges on the bright side, so attenuated treble is often a deal breaker for me.

^^^
This is great advice.

I have two Denon sut's a 320 & 310 and just got an Auditorium Standard. Two of my phono stages can run mc carts but I prefer using the mm settings and a sut by far. It is definitely worth considering as is playing with loading if that's an option.