• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Cartridge or turntable?

How would you split the balance of the impact of the sound each component plays? Is it 50/50 cart/turntable, or is it 80/20 cart/turntable?

If I may break it down a little further, I would suggest a 10/70/20 split with the 10 representing the impact of the cartridge, 70 representing the impact of the stylus and 20 representing the impact of the turntable. For the most part the cartridge is only as good as the stylus that is used in it.
 
Wow, thanks again, guys. Great discussion. Lots of food for thought here. I appreciate it.
 
I used to be in the camp that said that cartridge was 90 percent and TT only 10 percent.

A properly set-up LP12 (which I still think must be the most over-hyped item in all of audio, except Bose... but which is nevertheless a very nice TT) made me start to doubt that conclusion, and re-plinthed Lenco 75 and Garrard 301s (not mine!) made me fudge the percentages a bit more towards the TT.

The GT-2000 made me re-think the whole premise. I think Melofelo was right: what is required to make a TT that REALLY does what a TT should do is not simple nor easy nor cheap. When you get to the level of one that DOES do it all well, the impact is surprisingly big. Frankly, I'd rather hear an average cart on this TT than a superb cart on a mid-fi TT. But the number of TTs I've heard that I would say that about can probably be counted on your fingers, and living in Hong Kong I get to hear a lot of truly world-class TTs.

And incidentally, this qualifies for the OP's stipulations, as this TT comes with a tonearm, and it isn't designed to have interchangeable ones (although they did offer two alternative arms, and some people still manage to change arms on them, it takes some kludging).

Another digression: When speaking of "Ivor slugging around his first prototype to audio dealers in the UK to compare against the ubiquitous Jap DD tables, and proved that it sounded better," make sure you note the word "ubiquitous", in the context of the UK where he was. Back in Japan, they soon had DD TTs like this that send the LP12 figuratively into a fetal position in the corner of the room, whimpering, even by Ivor's own measures of PRAT, etc... NOT an easy feat, but the Japanese did accomplish it! Ivor didn't really "prove" anything, except perhaps what a clever marketer he was, and what the Japanese really thought of the British market.

Of course, the real answer to the OP's question is BOTH. If you have limited money to spend on the combination, I'd still recommend getting a better cartridge and tweaking a mid-fi TT. At the lower TT levels, the biggest gains come from upgrading the cart, not the TT, and good tweaking to get the most out of the TT will bring better bang-for-buck than simply buying a better TT.

But if your plan long-term is to go for truly high-end sound, then consider investing in a really good TT first, and then upgrading the cart, etc... I think Theophile discovered the wisdom of this approach when he was deliberating about whether to upgrade by getting a high-end cartridge for his PX-2 (already a pretty good TT) or by upgrading the TT to a GT-2000. He went for the TT first, and hasn't looked back. Go read his comments from when he first got it, if you want to read what someone else who has heard the difference a really good TT can make says.

As with the discussions of tubes vs. SS, source vs. speakers, or between driver types or speaker types, the answer isn't entirely black-and-white. At the level the OP is talking about, I'd still say cartridge outweighs turntable... but only because there are few affordable turntables that really perform well above average, and to get them, you'll still spend more than you'll spend on all but the REALLY high-end cartridges.

The proof? What is the most you can spend for a turntable? What do audiophiles pay for Continuum Caliburns, Rockport Sirius IIIs (if they can find one for sale) or Clearaudio Statements, etc...? And what is the world's most expensive cartridge? The prices at these levels are not just hype; it DOES cost a LOT more to make a TT good, than it does to make a cartridge good! If you limit the turntable choice up-front to mass-market models with built-in tonearms, then by definition you are limiting the quality of the turntable. At that level, you can certainly get more from moving to a better cartridge, than from a change of turntable.
 
Last edited:
I would be inclined to say that the cartridge is the important part between the two (forgive for not quantifying this) but I also have a different experience.

My first TT was a Dual 1009. It came with a Shure M44 cart. When I decided to upgrade, I bought a Stanton 681EEE cart. I wasn't impressed at all. Later I was gifted a noname belt drive TT that was totaly made of plastic. The tonearm looked good but was crap. The 681 sounded horrible on that TT. I dare say it sounded better on the Dual.

FF to today and I now have several good TTs and a handful of good carts. Used on a Technics SL-1210MkII, the 681 simply sings. Several other carts sound equally good or almost as good on that an a few other TTs (SL-1310MkII, SL-1500, Revox B790, Thorens TD-160, etc) I tried. The difference between the tables is inaudible to me.

OTOH, I also have a Revox B791 that came with an Ortofon MC20Super. This combo sings better. Several other Ortofon MC carts sing better on the SL1210 compared to the 681, but the difference is subte although clearly audible. It's just a matter of preference and type of music actually.

So, for me the bottom line is: A cart is important and can make a difference but a bad match between the cart and the tonearm or a bad TT can make a good cart sound awful. But once you have a half decent TT, then it's the cart that makes the difference
 
I've limited experience but here's what I've run into so far.

Same cart, different table: Have tried a BIC 980 with AT13e2 (new stylus), then switched to Lab 400 with that very same cart/stylus. Differences: tightness of bass, speed stability, sort of "openness" of sound as well as slightly wider soundstage, possibly a bit better detail.

Same table, different cart: That Lab-400 I started with a Shure M91, new stylus. Then switched to the AT13e2 above. Shure: sound was very exciting, engaging, but extremely sibilant and also very detailed. AT13e2 has a less exciting sound to me but enjoyable, almost as detailed, but zero sibilance and it is strikes me as being smooth and clear. Neither cart had tracking problems. Didn't notice anything jump out at me in terms of bass or midrange.

Same table, different cart: I have a Dual 622 that had a new DN150E stylus, had problems tracking louder passages, vocals, etc., kind of buzzy in spots, disorted in midrange maybe, but otherwise tonally balanced, reasonably tight bass, etc. (Yes, played with setup extensively) Swapped on a 1/2" headshell and am now running a Shure M91. Mistracking problems are gone, distortion is very low, seems pretty detailed, maybe not quite as exciting or with that sort of "openeness" quality as it sounded on the Lab 400 but take that with a grain of salt since I haven't listened to the TT through my main system since the swap.

My working theory is that the stylus/cart affect different aspects of the sound versus the table.

Table & arm seems to affect noise level, tightness of bass, detail, speed stability (duh). Cartridge/stylus seem to primarily affect frequency response, distortion, sibilance, detail, bass to some degree maybe.
 
Leaving the debate over what component is the most important for a moment, when you look at turntables and cartridges (I'm purposefully omitting tone arms here as I don't see myself as being able to afford a turntable that needs a separate tone arm), which do you think has the greatest impact on the quality of the signal that the receiver or pre-amp receives from the turntable? The cartridge or the turntable?

At the risk of answering my own question, I'm inclined to believe that it's the cartridge that has the greatest impact (as the cart converts the mechanical energy of the stylus wiggling in the groove to an electrical signal). The turntable's impact on the quality of the sound, I'm presuming, is more along the lines of maintaining a constant speed, eliminating rumble, and isolating the noise-making bits of the turntable from ambient noises and vibrations (foot steps, doors slamming, bass drums beating through your speakers, etc...).

How would you split the balance of the impact of the sound each component plays? Is it 50/50 cart/turntable, or is it 80/20 cart/turntable?

My focus here is entry level to low-mid level turntables (as indicated above, turntables that come complete with their own tone arms).

Thanks.
Do you presently have a turntable and cartridge? If so do what is your present cartridge and turntable. Hard to help if we only have half the story.
 
All I know is that I have a bunch of Shure and AT carts and they all sound good on my Dual turntables.
at3600l
M91
V15 iii
Atvm95c
Atvm95e
Shure SPS
At91
Shure/Realistic rtx4

Dual 1229, 1249, 1264, 1218

I think it’s the table, otherwise one of these would sound better; they sound different (frequency response) but they all sound good
 
Leaving the debate over what component is the most important for a moment, when you look at turntables and cartridges (I'm purposefully omitting tone arms here as I don't see myself as being able to afford a turntable that needs a separate tone arm), which do you think has the greatest impact on the quality of the signal that the receiver or pre-amp receives from the turntable? The cartridge or the turntable?

At the risk of answering my own question, I'm inclined to believe that it's the cartridge that has the greatest impact (as the cart converts the mechanical energy of the stylus wiggling in the groove to an electrical signal). The turntable's impact on the quality of the sound, I'm presuming, is more along the lines of maintaining a constant speed, eliminating rumble, and isolating the noise-making bits of the turntable from ambient noises and vibrations (foot steps, doors slamming, bass drums beating through your speakers, etc...).

How would you split the balance of the impact of the sound each component plays? Is it 50/50 cart/turntable, or is it 80/20 cart/turntable?

My focus here is entry level to low-mid level turntables (as indicated above, turntables that come complete with their own tone arms).

Thanks.
Tonearm and cartridge are a system. High end cartridges in inappropriate arms for them, won't deliver the performance they are capable of and can be a mismatch. Compliance mismatches are another major thing to consider. I prefer lower end cartridge in a high end arm to the opposite.
 
All I know is that I have a bunch of Shure and AT carts and they all sound good on my Dual turntables.
at3600l
M91
V15 iii
Atvm95c
Atvm95e
Shure SPS
At91
Shure/Realistic rtx4

Dual 1229, 1249, 1264, 1218

I think it’s the table, otherwise one of these would sound better; they sound different (frequency response) but they all sound good
In my own Duals I've owned (idler wheel small chassis classics) the Shure M-75 was the most appropriate choice for them in daily life, usually EJ or ED. The most performance for the least cash outlay. My Dual 1019 presently runs a Audio-Technica AT-VM 95C.
 
In my own Duals I've owned (idler wheel small chassis classics) the Shure M-75 was the most appropriate choice for them in daily life, usually EJ or ED. The most performance for the least cash outlay. My Dual 1019 presently runs a Audio-Technica AT-VM 95C.
I don’t have any m75, but i like the m91, m95 and sps the best. V15 type iii is too hot/trebely. The ATs are nice; I thought the at3600l sounded the best, but the heavy tracking force is not matched well to anything except the 1218 (which can do 5g)
 
The cartridge is always the biggest factor. But a resonating tone arm and a turntable with wow and flutter and rumble surely can compromise the sound and the cartridges capabilities. Having a great cartridge is always the first choice with a TT and tone arm that allow it to perform as the cartridge should is the way to go. So its a package deal. If I had the money I would have a SME TT with MK 5 tone arm and a great top of the line Dynavector. Another Choice might be a Bergmann TT with linear arm and vacuum hold down to flatten warped records and a Dynavector MC cartridge.
 
I choose tonearm as the most important component here, then competent turnable drive/platter system, then cartridge last.

Oh, and holy thread resurrection.
 
or Micro Seki tables, vs. what happens when the same carts are used on the Sondek....with the LP-12 the step up in quality is glaringly obvious, and you can more easily hear each cartridge's strengths and weaknesses, and tell where each one belongs in my cartridge collection's hierarchy....

Well, I can tell you that all of the Micro Seiki's I have personally heard clearly better my old Sondek LP12. In fact, I consider my current BL-51/MA-101/Shelter 201 to be nearly twice as good as my old LP12/Grace 707/Sonus Blue.

But in agreement with your post, a cartridge is only as good as a turntable and tonearm allow it to be.
 
I don’t have any m75, but i like the m91, m95 and sps the best. V15 type iii is too hot/trebely. The ATs are nice; I thought the at3600l sounded the best, but the heavy tracking force is not matched well to anything except the 1218 (which can do 5g)
I used M75 family due to versatility. Which for me is necessary. Gimpy feet/wood floors which are springy needs it. Gimpus Stereophilus applies.
 
OK, let's look at tit this way...

Take two turntables and two carts, one high end and one not, but worthy.
Set up and properly matched, would the high end turntable with the worthy cart sound better than the worthy table with the high end cart???

I'd tend to expect the latter....:yes:
Really. I'd like to hear your reasoning.

I've always presumed that if the deck spins at the proper speed consistently, it's doing about all you can expect from it.

That's why I'm on the cartridge side.
 
Speed control is only one aspect of turntable performance. Vibration transfer from motor and bearings smears the sound of the cartridge so both the table and the arm are critical to resolution. A good cartridge is important but is wasted on a turntable that can't isolate that cartridge from vibration.
 
It depends on where you start, What part of the turntable kit is the weak link. Sometimes it's obvious. Like with the 2023 Rega Planar 2 I bought new. The stock Carbon cartridge was definitely the weak link. Now that I've installed their Nd3 cartridge, I can't believe the improvement.

The new Planar 2's come with that cartridge pre-installed now. So it's a perfect balance. I can upgrade the cartridge to their Nd5 for about 1/2 the price of their Planar 3 table w/o a cartridge. I'm guessing that would yield better results then upgrading the table to their planar 3 using the same cartridge. So in answer to your question, it looks like the cartridge makes the biggest difference, at least in this case..

But once you upgrade to the ND5 on the Planar 2 you're upgrade path is limited.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom