Cartridge question for Denon 45F

[GuhGarfield]

I recently picked up a Denon 45F, and I love the look and functionality of it so far. However, the cartridge on it is kind of lacking. From what I understand, there's an issue with certain cartridges being too 'tall' to work properly with the tonearm on it. I'm not 100% sure, because it's been difficult to find other threads about it.

I have an ortofon 2m red, and I've liked it on previous setups, but it's much taller than the one preinstalled. Should I worry about swapping it out for that one? Or if not, are there some recommendations you all would have for a similarly priced MM cart?

I'd appreciate any advice, sorry if the question is a bit basic.

 

[Crab33]

You don't say which cartridge is fitted now. A stylus upgrade may solve the problem.

I've never owned this turntable but I think it has a low-mass arm. So you should look at cartridges with high-compliance styli. The 2M Red should be OK to start with. If it's too tall, it will be tail-down when playing and the sound balance will be shifted towards the warmer end of the spectrum. This may actually work out well, so the best thing to do is try it, but only if you are certain you don't want to continue with the existing cartridge.

Most modern cartridges are fairly tall, in the region of 16-18mm. If you want a shorter cartridge, around 14mm, then you may need to look for a suitable vintage model and buy a good aftermarket stylus for it.

 

[Greenie]

I recently picked up a Denon 45F, and I love the look and functionality of it so far. However, the cartridge on it is kind of lacking. From what I understand, there's an issue with certain cartridges being too 'tall' to work properly with the tonearm on it. I'm not 100% sure, because it's been difficult to find other threads about it.

I have an ortofon 2m red, and I've liked it on previous setups, but it's much taller than the one preinstalled. Should I worry about swapping it out for that one? Or if not, are there some recommendations you all would have for a similarly priced MM cart?

I'd appreciate any advice, sorry if the question is a bit basic.

The 45f is fitted with the 'servo tacer tonearm' which if all the electronics are functioning will allow a vast selection of carts to work well with it. My experience about a decade ago with this TT and the 47f was they sang with ADC XLM and Ortofon VMS 20 carts. I did use a Shure M75ej and various entry level AT's on the 45f for a while quite happily. I've never quite found a deck to rival these Denons in their flexability and ability to cope with warped records.

 

[GuhGarfield]

Thanks for the replies, I swapped the cart out for the 2M Red, and the weights are off on my scale no matter how I adjust the counter-weight or tracking force dials. I guess the cart is too heavy for this tonearm. Tried it out on some records I don't care so much about and it sounds great, but it is definitely too tall to safely clear the record in automatic start.

I've been looking around for some retail carts that are shorter, and so far found the AT85EP that would probably fit better. Nothing crazy, but enough to get me started for now. Looks like vintage carts might be my best bet down the line.

 

[HamboneF18]

Did you turn off power to the deck before you zero’d the arm? Power has to be off to get the arm balanced. Then power on to set VTF, AS, Q Damping.

 

[GuhGarfield]

Did you turn off power to the deck before you zero’d the arm? Power has to be off to get the arm balanced. Then power on to set VTF, AS, Q Damping.

Yeah I had the power off during the whole process. Turned the power back on and the arm wouldn't balance itself afterward. I got it to kind of work, but the result on the scale I used maxed it out. Definitely wasn't 2g of force.

 

[HamboneF18]

What VTF do you get with the arm balanced at no power, then power on and VTF turned to “0”?

 

[GuhGarfield]

What VTF do you get with the arm balanced at no power, then power on and VTF turned to “0”?

I could get 2g of tracking force with the power off, but the counter weight was very nearly off the end. Unsurprisingly wouldn't work at all like that. Turning the power just results in the tonearm staying still where it is, not responding to any of the controls. Moving the weight back to a reasonable position pins the scale at max, both powered and unpowered, but the auto-start then begins working like it should.

It's entirely possible that I'm messing something up, but I really just think this cart was never meant for one of these tonearms.

 

[HamboneF18]

With power off, you shouldn’t be having any difficulty balancing the tonearm with that cartridge. The 2M Red is not a particularly heavy cartridge. Do you have the original Denon headshell? Are you using the original counterweight?

You should be having no problem balancing your tonearm with power off. Then, with power on, you should be able to dial in 2.0 grams on the VTF control, and get very close to 2.0 grams at your stylus tip.

If you can’t balance it with power off, something’s wrong. If you don’t get 2.0 grams VTF with 2.0 grams dialed in, something’s wrong.

 

[seely]

Thanks for the replies, I swapped the cart out for the 2M Red, and the weights are off on my scale no matter how I adjust the counter-weight or tracking force dials.

I'm kind of lost on this part... are you saying that you can't get to the proper VTF using the counterweight? With JVC's using basically the same setup, you're only supposed to zero balance the arm with the power off, then set VTF with the VTF dial. With my JVC I've found it's fairly important to have the zero balance precisely dialed in so that the stylus floats just above the record for the VTF scale to be accurate. I don't know how much it matters, but I take weight readings with my scale at roughly record-height with a wood block under the scale.

 

[HamboneF18]

Arm parallel to platter is correct for zero balance.

I have both the DP45F and DP52F. Either the OP doesn’t understand the process, or the servo for VTF is malfunctioning.

 

[seely]

If issues persist, wouldn't hurt to start with cleaning the VTF pot, when I did, it did improve the accuracy.

 

[HamboneF18]

I think OP has bigger problems than VTF “accuracy.”

 

[seely]

I think OP has bigger problems than VTF “accuracy.”

I'm saying that it improved the accuracy *for me* (mine wasn't that bad). If the pot is dirty enough, I believe it could affect the operation w/ inconsistent or inadequate voltage.

 

[HamboneF18]

Since I haven’t had issues with mine, I tend to think the OP has bigger issues. Sounds like he’s not achieving anywhere close to proper VTF.

 

[HamboneF18]

So to start with, the OPs cart is too heavy, or he has the wrong CW for that arm. He can’t achieve proper zero arm balance. So just to get the CW on the stub shaft, he’s already 2 grams heavy on the cantilever end. So when he dials in VTF on the servo control, he’s way off on the stylus tip force, and way off on AS, and way off on Q Damping.