cartridge/stylus diminishing returns?

[lt.slothr0p]

hi everybody!
i have a question about integrating cartridges and stylii into a system. i have a simple 2-channel hifi: sansui sr-222 mkii, pioneer sx-850, and klipsch r820f speakers. i need to replace the stylus on my vintage empire cart and i'm exploring my options with respect to a new stylus and/or cart. i'm considering a nice ortofon or nagaoka. my question is how do you know when you've reached the point where a cartridge and/or stylus is "too good" for your other components? is there a rule of thumb for considering diminishing returns on this front? thanks gang!

 

[daveg3588]

The simple answer is when you are happy with the sound. Look up the cartridge's you are considering in AK, that will give some direction. Found a nice right up on your your table, it suggests a better headshell may give you better sound.
Classic Hi-Fi

 

[doctor fuse]

What models of Empire, Ortofon and Nagaoka? Many of us only know one or two models of each brand, so can't comment in general.

 

[markd51]

"How Deep is Your Love"?! Or all kidding aside, how deep are your pockets? LOL

The question of diminishing returns is actually very hard to place a finger on IMO. 1000 people could give you a 1000 different answers.

I'd say likely, a $12K Cartridge and a $20K Table, and all other downline components being exquisite, all things combined being right on will probably extract just about all that could ever be expected to be retrieved from any vinyl groove.

But, some might still say, "meh", and would probably be correct to say no matter what and how much spent, it still can never equal a live performance. It will always be a relative shadow and glimpse of. And that can be of any genre, be it hard rock, clasical, jazz, R&B, etc.

Like when I seen ELP many years ago, when they came out with their Brain Salad Surgery Album. Made my system sound like a mere $9 GE hand held Pocket Transistor Radio from the mid 60's. LOL Same with Zep, Jethro Tull, Dave Brubeck live, Buddy Rich etc etc.

All BS aside, I'd say you must be thinking your existing Empire is due for re-tip with a new Stylus on board. That would likely be the simplest-easiest, and least expensive option to keep you playing for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise, moving up costs some better money. And when I'm talking better money, it staggers me at times to see what meager offerings today cost! Something like a Shure M-97, etc., make you go round and round, and say damn, do I want to spend that much?, and then will it really be an improvement which I can justify the cost of? Guess there's one way to find out in that instance.

Depends all where you want to go? How far you'd like to go up the ladder, and how much to spend?

The point of your actual diminishing returns could probably be, "Does it make any logical sense to throw a $400-$500 MM Cartridge on your Table? Will your table be able to compliment and extract the performance of such a cartridge? That's hard to say?

Will it play nice, and likely be a good improvement over your existing cartridge? Very likely it will. And might even perform better if you one day transplant that cartridge to another, better table-arm.

I've heard some crazy stories like this, about guys who fish, that's their entire life. They've had a few boats prior, but now decide to go out and buy a $50K Ranger Bass Boat, And they're pulling it with a $700 1978 Silverado Pickup Truck. That's what they wanted, and that's what they got.

They don't care that they haven't changed their underwear or socks in a month, what they care about is that boat! LOL

 

[lt.slothr0p]

What models of Empire, Ortofon and Nagaoka? Many of us only know one or two models of each brand, so can't comment in general.

i've got an empire 2000Z cart now. when i first acquired it, NOS styli weren't too hard to find, but the well seems to have dried up. jico seems to be the best option at this point. but i've read that moving iron designs can deteriorate over time, and i'm also just kind of curious about making a change since the empire has been my main for several years. i'm looking at an ortofon 2M blue or possibly bronze if the extra money is worth it, or the nag mp200. i've had a bunch of grados in the past and i've enjoyed my 2000Z but i'm not opposed to playing the field... lol

 

[lt.slothr0p]

The point of your actual diminishing returns could probably be, "Does it make any logical sense to throw a $400-$500 MM Cartridge on your Table? Will your table be able to compliment and extract the performance of such a cartridge? That's hard to say?

ya that's exactly what i'm trying to figure out! i totally get what you're saying about different systems sounds good to different ears, and the boat analogy as well. sure, at the end of the day my opinion/enjoyment is all that matters, but i just wanted to get some input. thanks!

 

[grillebilly]

You have a pretty nice rig and it probably sounds great. The 222 is not near their TOTL but is still going to serve you well, especially with a nice cart. At what price point, it's really not for me to say what you should do but I can say what I would do.
I would be looking in the $2-300 range if getting a new cart. The Denon DL-110 is a favorite in that range. So is the AT440 MLa and MLb but they have been discontinued/replaced.

 

[markd51]

ya that's exactly what i'm trying to figure out! i totally get what you're saying about different systems sounds good to different ears, and the boat analogy as well. sure, at the end of the day my opinion/enjoyment is all that matters, but i just wanted to get some input. thanks!

I'm not sure about your Ortofon choices? Seems back in the day, relatively inexpensive MM models were darn nice cartridges. Have never owned newer models, seems like some of the less expensive stuff gets a lot of mixed reviews. Hard to say if they will suit you?

Have you found any prices for suitable replacement styli for your Empire 2000Z cartridge?

An Audio Technica 440 was at one point when they first came out were not too expensive, and yeah they are good, but prices for them, and what you can find now new have shot up in price. And something like the AT150 models, ouch!

 

[George H]

It took me so long I needed hearing aids after empty pockets.

 

[lt.slothr0p]

The 222 is not near their TOTL but is still going to serve you well

ya! the 222 has been an absolute workhorse--it's never given me an ounce of trouble since i scored it on CL three years back. it's quiet and the speed is rock solid. i've tried to help it out a little by making sure it's properly levelled, de-coupled from the floor, etc. thanks for your suggestions!

 

[jrtrent]

i've got an empire 2000Z cart now. when i first acquired it, NOS styli weren't too hard to find, but the well seems to have dried up. jico seems to be the best option at this point. but i've read that moving iron designs can deteriorate over time, and i'm also just kind of curious about making a change since the empire has been my main for several years. i'm looking at an ortofon 2M blue or possibly bronze if the extra money is worth it, or the nag mp200. i've had a bunch of grados in the past and i've enjoyed my 2000Z but i'm not opposed to playing the field... lol

Herb Reichert wrote an interesting piece, mainly about budget cartridges, in which he preferred the AT-VM95SH ($199 version with Shibata stylus) over the $755 Ortofon 2M Black; however, he liked what he heard even better when replacing the AT's Shibata stylus with the $49 bonded elliptical (VMN95E). He also wrote:

"Speaking of force and vigor, the AT-VM95C (conical)—which is even cheaper than the $49 elliptical version [current price on the VM95E is $69, with $49 replacement styli], at $34 [current price for the VM95C is $39, with $25 replacement styli]—sounded cool, fast, and powerful but also detailed and invigorating. It played complex recordings, like the Stravinsky Conducts Histoire Du Soldat Suite, with power-packed, pitch-perfect bass, a flawlessly toned and detailed midrange, and enough upper-octave energy to make trumpets, drums, and woodwinds sound lifelike and exciting. Drum impact was spectacular. Music-pleasure–wise, Audio-Technica's VM95C was the most satisfying cartridge in this survey. It shifted my perspective and made me reconsider what I thought I knew about phonography." https://www.stereophile.com/content...io-technica-goldring-lp-gear-phono-cartridges

A caveat is that he did all his comparing with a $9000 turntable/tonearm combination, and he has some interesting comments on the relative importance of 'table/arm vs. cartridge, plus a quote and some thoughts on what makes a conical stylus such a satisfying listen. Personally, I'm finding happiness with a cheap conical cartridge (Sumiko Oyster), and I enjoy hours of quality, engaging record listening with it every day. I've owned more expensive cartridges, but they didn't give me any more pleasure from my records than the Oyster does, and with cheap $39 replacement styli, I can afford to play records to my heart's content even in my somewhat impoverished financial condition.

 

[doctor fuse]

Not sure how "complex" L'histoire du Soldat is (only seven instruments)? The drums are recorded particularly well, never approaching clipping. Stravinsky conducting his more congested pieces, like his Symphony In Three Movements or Rite of Spring, is more of a challenge for a system, especially cartridges/styluses and speakers.

That LP of L'histoire can sound excellent on the crappiest of Crosley toy tables with plastic and ceramic cartridge.

 

[knotscott]

Re: Herb Reichert's article, I've got a VM95E, VM95SH, and an AT95C (not the VM95C) that I use on a couple of TTs that cost...umm, well...less than $9K! . (AT-LP120X and the Garrard/Marantz combo in my avatar). They're all pleasant carts to listen to. The VM95SH is quite a bit more refined IMO than the VM95E. They have a similar balance, but the E is a bit sloppier in the treble, so I'm not quite sure why he'd prefer it, but it's his right and his opinion. Hard to argue the value at $50 for VMN95E or even the AT95C for $25....both kind of impressive per dollar spent, but if your system has more to offer from what gets squeezed from the grooves, the SH just sounds more detailed, open, and delicate to these ears, however it is more sensitive of setup.

 

[jrtrent]

. . . Hard to argue the value at $50 for VMN95E or even the AT95C for $25....both kind of impressive per dollar spent, but if your system has more to offer from what gets squeezed from the grooves, the SH just sounds more detailed, open, and delicate to these ears, however it is more sensitive of setup.

The quotes in the article are interesting, and I don't think they'd disagree with your thinking the Shibata is more detailed, open, and delicate:

Art Dudley, "I continue to prefer the spherical experience—to me, it emphasizes musical content over air, allowing instruments and voices to sound more substantial, and music to sound, overall, less fussy than with other tip types."

Reichert, "I agree 100% with Art's observation: Spherical/conical-tipped cartridges emphasize "musical content" with force and vigor. And simplification. By eliminating some amounts of complex low-level spatial, atmospheric, and harmonic information, conical tips seem to expose the raw, beating core of humans playing music. That's why I love them."

 

[jrtrent]

Re: Herb Reichert's article, I've got a VM95E, VM95SH, and an AT95C (not the VM95C) that I use on a couple of TTs that cost...umm, well...less than $9K! . (AT-LP120X and the Garrard/Marantz combo in my avatar). . .

I, too, have that dandy, budget-priced turntable, the AT-LP120XUSB. With the stock VM95 cartridge, I preferred the VMN95C stylus to the VMN95E that came with it. I was even happier when I put a 78 rpm stylus on the VM95 and mounted up a Sumiko Oyster on an identical headshell for lp's and 45's. At least in my setup, the Oyster gives better resolution and dynamics, making music even more involving than with the VM95C (which was no slouch). Maybe there's something about the phono stage in my AVA preamp that's just happier with the Oyster. My Rega RP3 is on temporary hiatus while I doggedly await the availability of the new EBLT belt (covid19 shutdowns are supposedly responsible for the delay).

 

[Tiver]

No doubt we all listen with our own ears and each of us listens in a different way. Having each listening perspective in print allows one to consider how we each might or might not improve our own experience.

As far as diminishing returns? That number is fixed at $350

 

[lt.slothr0p]

I've owned more expensive cartridges, but they didn't give me any more pleasure from my records than the Oyster does, and with cheap $39 replacement styli, I can afford to play records to my heart's content even in my somewhat impoverished financial condition.

this has all be fascinating indeed! i used to have a rotating cast of grado carts and styli which i (mostly) enjoyed for years and i had similar experiences with respect to the more expensive cart/styli combos not necessarily being what i enjoyed most. i think at this point i'll probably start with a safe bet and get a jico replacement for my 2000Z but i guess if that doesn't alleviate my "is the other grass greener?" syndrome i might be tempted to check out something else. thanks for the input 2 cents guys!

 

[Grenadeslio]

this has all be fascinating indeed! i used to have a rotating cast of grado carts and styli which i (mostly) enjoyed for years and i had similar experiences with respect to the more expensive cart/styli combos not necessarily being what i enjoyed most. i think at this point i'll probably start with a safe bet and get a jico replacement for my 2000Z but i guess if that doesn't alleviate my "is the other grass greener?" syndrome i might be tempted to check out something else. thanks for the input 2 cents guys!

Have several Grados, Pickerings, Clearaudios, Sumiko, Denon, etc. My Pickering XV15 1200E/D1200 is my favorite on the Thorens.

Really liked my Grado Platinum with the Grace G707 arm on the Kenwood KD500. But once I tried a Grace on the table I was hooked on the sound. Now have one on my Well Tempered Lab Turntable also and it really sings.

Many consider Grace to be some of the best MM cartridges ever made, I can't argue with that. I have several of the older F-8 series purchased when still relatively cheap. The later F-9 series have quite a following so prices for these and later models carry a premium price tag and they're going up.

The secret is out on the F-8 so prices have been climbing on these now and NOS stylus are getting harder to find. So the F-9 might be the way to go as its popularity has Soundsmith making replacement stylus.

 

[tabarddn51]

As others have said, if you are happy with the sound improvement it will be worthwhile.
1st thing though is what version is your T/T, the quoted specs for the Mk-2/3/4 arm quite remarkably difference with the Mk 4 obviously the best.
2nd you need to find out what the Effective Mass of your arm is so you can match it up with a suitable cartridge. get the wrong match, high compliance cart with a high mass arm & the cart will just skid across the LP, no matter how much tracking force you apply. Likewise a low compliance cart with low Eff Mass arm will not be so disastrous, however you will most-likely loose base
However on your T/T I would not spend more than say $200. Some cartridges however are up-gradable by allowing the stylus assembly to be changed. ie the Ortofon OM series. here you can go from a very cheap OM3 or 5 up in 4 stages to a quite expensive OM40 stylus. Some of the A/T cart's can have the same treatment. However unless you can raise & lower your arm height vertically you are wasting your time buying anything more than an Elliptical stylus.

Cheers

 

[SaSi]

In terms of cartridge and stylus, from my personal experience, that definitely does not include trying $3,000 carts and tonearms, is that a better cartridge on a turntable that is suitable for it will definitely improve the sound. Even when the preamp/integrated is a lowly one and you are digitizing audio to make MP3 files.
A good MC cart connected through a very good step up pre-preamp or a step up transformer will give you a great improvement. But, on the other hand, an OM20 or OM30 stylus for a lowly OM body will give you perhaps 97,13% of the improvement at a much lower cost and higher compatibility.

Without having any kind of experience listening to a $10,000 turntable combo, I would say that after a decent (cheap) upgrade to the cart, the next thing that will need upgrading will be the loudspeakers. But then the options are plenty and depend on the listening space. Which is also a big part of the equation, and will need to be addressed by room treatment. And you will be happy until you realize your decent amplifier lacks the dynamics to drive the speakers to the level possible for them and the room, which is when you will look for another, bigger power amplifier.

There's a cycle there and it needs to be run at last twice, going back to the source, the speakers, the amplifier, etc.