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Cartridge wiring continuity/troubleshooting

ClickyButton

New Member
Hello! I'm new to audiokarma, so I apologize if this is in the wrong section. I wasn't sure if I should post it here or on DIY, so I guessed. Admin, please feel free to move it if I messed up.

I am restoring a Sony linear tracking turntable I picked up for cheap. The platter and linear tracking worked fine, but (1) the sensor to detect a 7" record didn't seem to work (despite the rubber mat being lined up with the holes) and (2) only a hum came from the phono out.

I figured out problem 1 fairly quickly; the photosensor worked but was angled specifically to detect light from the turntable lamp, which was burnt out. I could make it work by aiming a flashlight just right. It took more disassembly than I expected to get the bulb replaced, but I got it done.

Problem (2) didn't concern me at first. This turntable had been sitting a while and I assumed it was a bad cartridge. But while I was digging into the unit, I figured I should check the 4 conductors going from the tonearm to the phono rca plugs.

I confirmed continuity where it should be for a P type cartridge (with the cartridge removed, of course). Red and White had continuity to their respective RCA jack center conductors, blue had continuity with the outer white conductor, and green had continuity with the outer red conductor. So far so good.

But then I realized there was similar continuity (on the order of single digit ohms) between the outer and inner conductors of each RCA cable. Sure enough, the green wire had continuity with the inner red conductor, the red wire had continuity with the outer red conductor, the white wire had continuity with the outer white conductor, and the blue wire had continuity with the inner white conductor.

I assumed this was a short circuit, and figured the most likely culprit were the male RCA jacks themselves, as they were slightly out of round when I got them and I had to straighten them out. So I replaced them with high quality solder-on Jacks.

But there is still cross-continuity between the blue and white wires and the red and green wires.

Inside the unit, the 4 conductors come down from the tonearm and go directly to a PCB near the back of the case. The wires that go to the RCA Jacks go to this PCB too, and the PCB simply serves as a location to solder the 4 tonearm conductors to the 4 RCA conductors together in such a way that you can't damage the delicate tonearm conductors by yanking on the RCA wires. The solder joints look good and do not appear to touch.

I figure now I need to start cutting things off: the Jacks (again) to make sure it's not a problem with them, then the wires from the PCB. If it's on the PCB, I can bypass it. If it's up the tonearm wire, I'm not sure.

BUT- Before I do anything, I want to make sure I'm not chasing a wild goose. It seems unconscionable to me that there should be continuity between the inner and outer parts of the RCA jack, but I'm really only familiar with DC, AC power, and digital wiring, not AC circuits and audio. The fact that both coax wires have continuity with themselves but not at all with each other has me worried that maybe my assumption is wrong.

Am I correct in assuming there should be no continuity (should be open loop) between any of the conductors when there is no cartridge installed?

Does anyone have any troubleshooting tips for me?

Thank you!
 
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You haven't said which turntable it is. Many of the Sonys have a muting relay that shorts the cart output when arm is cued up,
 
It's a Sony PS-LX500.

Where is this relay located? is it inside the tonearm mechanism? I can see the wires go from the mechanism direct to the output. If the relay is in the base of the turntable I don't think mine has it.

How would I test for continuity with the relay in the playing state? Do I have to power the unit?
 
The mute contacts may be under the table and operated by a cam follower that rides on a large toothed wheel which moves at the end of a play cycle. I'm not familiar with that model of turntable, but many use some variation of that for muting.
 
I'll take a look again tonight, and post some pictures. As far as I can tell there is nothing interrupting the wire between the tonearm and the photo outputs.

Am I understanding what the mute relay does correctly, by the following description?: The mute relay does not disconnect the cartridge from the outputs- rather it shorts the + and - from the outputs so that there is no impedance at the cartridge and therefore no sound can be transmitted?
 
It's a Sony PS-LX500.
The PS-LX500 does have (or SHOULD have) a muting relay. This is direct from the Owners Manual:
PS-LX500_muting_text.jpg

Where is this relay located? is it inside the tonearm mechanism? I can see the wires go from the mechanism direct to the output. If the relay is in the base of the turntable I don't think mine has it.
It SHOULD be on the same PCB you described above, the one the RCA cables connect to. That's where all the other PS-LX5xx tables have their relay.

How would I test for continuity with the relay in the playing state? Do I have to power the unit?
Of course! Relays don't function without power. And you have to lower the tonearm to trigger it.

You should go to Vinylengine.com and download the owners manual, and get the Service Manuals for the LX510 & LX520 (no free SM is available for the LX500), they are most similar to the LX500.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-lx500.shtml

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-lx510.shtml

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-lx520.shtml

Am I understanding what the mute relay does correctly, by the following description?: The mute relay does not disconnect the cartridge from the outputs- rather it shorts the + and - from the outputs so that there is no impedance at the cartridge and therefore no sound can be transmitted?
That's it. Here's the schematic representation from the LX510 manual:
510_relay_schema.jpg
 
Ah, thank you! I will upload pictures tonight. Posting here saved me from making the embarrassing mistake of cutting wires for no reason. Basically my continuity test revealed that the relay is working as intended in the powered off state... unless its shorted somewhere else, but that seems highly unlikely to happen at the same time to both outputs.

Would the expected result of the relay being stuck be a low humming sound from the speakers? I suppose I could still have a bad cartridge, can I make that determination with a multimeter?

I guess I'll put everything back together and see if I can get any sound from it. If not, I'll have to confirm if the relay is functioning properly. I'm a bit weary of powering the unit when the case is open, any tricks to doing this?
 
Update: I found the relay. You're right, it's on that board. I took a picture but I don't think it's relevant, because I tested it and it works. When the record starts playing, there is a click and the + and - become discontinuous.

I checked to see if I could get music out of it, and I thought I was just getting hum. When I turn the volume up, I can hear some of the record getting through the hum. But with my amp at 50% gain its about as loud as 2% gain should be.

So I'm thinking my next step must be cartridge. I checked mine and get about 700 ohms through each coil. I read that different ohms through each coil means a bad cartridge, but they were both about the same. What kind of range are they supposed to be in? Is there something else I should check first?
 
700 ohms is in the right ball park for many cartridges. It does vary by model (I don't think you mentioned which it is) but usually the range from brand to brand is a few hundred to a thousand-ish.

So, at this point I have to ask if you have it plugged into a Phono input, not a Line level one like CD, Auxiliary or Tape. Phono cartridges have output voltages that are a small fraction of Line level sources.
 
Lol, I appreciate you asking (it's like the CSR asking you if your computer is plugged in when you call). Yes, it's plugged into phono. Yes I know the difference. Preamps and RIAA curves and all that.

It seems an awful lot to me like a bad cartridge, or maybe just a bad needle? Something wrong with the coils would cause an imbalanced impedance but maybe something is mechanically wrong inside the cartridge.

The question is, am I overlooking anything? Is there anything else inside the player that would cause the phono output to be so low and it have a hum? It seems like the phono out is directly from the cartridge so I'm guessing no- but I'd hate to get a new cartridge and have the same exact issue.
 
Well, I tried a brand new cartridge. No change. If anything the hum is lower but so is the volume.

Im kinda stumped. I'm tempted to bypass the mute relay board. I don't need the functionality of the line output (and yes I've checked to see if the line output is any better, it's not).

Does anyone else have any ideas? I am very new to this kind of diagnostic work.
 
Maybe your amp has a bad phono stage? I would try the table on another amp. If you dont have another amp to try you could get a cheap phono preamp and connect into an aux/tape/cd/etc input.

Edit: I looked at the pictures and there seems to be some suspect solder joints on the relay board. I would reflow the bad looking one that appears to be under the relay especially and separate the solder bridge on the red wire to start.
 
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Well, I tried a brand new cartridge. No change. If anything the hum is lower but so is the volume.

Im kinda stumped. I'm tempted to bypass the mute relay board. I don't need the functionality of the line output (and yes I've checked to see if the line output is any better, it's not).

Does anyone else have any ideas? I am very new to this kind of diagnostic work.
It's clear someone has been inside mucking about with the wiring before. You've got 3 crimp connector splices on the left (this appears to only be the pilot lamp), and electrical tape wrap around all 4 cartridge wire splices. Unwrap the 4 cart wires and make sure they were spliced correctly, and not shorting to each other.
wire-hacks.jpg

If they look good, try lifting the relay contacts. The relay isn't sealed, unlatch & remove the cover and carefully slip a piece of paper (or something non-conductive) between the contacts, so it can't close short. Check through continuity with power off first, before trying to play a record.
relay-latch.jpg

The solder bridge LikeBike mentioned is not an issue, those 4 pairs of pads are already connected by copper track.
 
The crimp connectors are me. I did that, replacing the lamp. I'd never use crimp connectors for an audio signal, but for some low voltage power wiring, I don't see a problem with them. I used the extra one because I accidentally cut the wire too short, my bad!

The amp is fine. I have another turntable, an AudioTechnica. I switch back to it after testing this turntable, and it works great, otherwise I couldn't play my vinyl, that that would make me very sad. I just want to use this turntable because it's cooler :cool:

I agree the electrical tape is suspect- it comes from the wires from the cartridge, but I did peel it back to check they aren't touching.

I tried disconnecting the 4 pin white connector that goes to the relay. I can see that there must be a preamp built into the other board, as that 4 pin connector goes from the mute relay to the other board, and back from the other board to the 3.5mm line output. I thought maybe something was wrong there, so I disconnected that connector, but it didn't make a difference.

I am a complete Noob when it comes to AC circuits. Is it possible that capacitor could have gone bad and is causing this issue? How does one test a capacitor with a multimeter?

I will try the paper in the relay trick. The relay does not appear to be in a socket. It's possible it's clicking but not completely disengaging. I am also getting test wires so I can plug both cartridges into the amp and brush the needle to confirm I don't just have 2 bad cartridges.
 
I don't know, but this solder joint in particular looks bad from here :dunno:. Follow purple'ish arrow and reference with original picture (my copy is more blurry)

IMG_20201102_222932~3.jpg
 
I don't know, but this solder joint in particular looks bad from here :dunno:.
If that were the only problem, it would only affect 1 channel, and that channel might actually work.

The relay contacts are NOT in series with the signal path. They merely short the signal to ground to achieve muting.

ie, if you remove the relay from the board, the signal path remains intact, and muting is non-functional.

But that's why I suggested blocking the relay contacts from closing, it's easier than removing the relay, just to determine if the relay is at fault.
 
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